Keen and Vorpal

[AJMavrik]

Looked through the threads and could not find an answer to this question.

Can weapons have both keen and vorpal placed on them? I thought you could but another in my group says you cant. Any help with this would be appreciated.

 

[DarkJester]

Yes, you can have a Keen Vorpal (insert slashing weapon here). You could not have a +5 Keen Vorpal sword though, as the total bonus there would be +11.

*Edit* Vorpal Vorpal Vorpal Vorpal...not Vorpral.

*Edit Again*
I seem to recall someone saying that Vorpal weapons only chop off heads on a critical within the natural threat range of a weapon. I can't remember if that was a house rule, sage advice or just some chum talking though.

 

[Veldrane]

I seem to recall someone saying that Vorpal weapons only chop off heads on a critical within the natural threat range of a weapon. I can't remember if that was a house rule, sage advice or just some chum talking though.

It's Monte Cook's personal ruling about the "on a 10 to 20 I chop your head" matter.. ..the DMG allows the Vorpal ability to function when a critical is scored, so if a Weapon Master with Impr. Critical had a Keen [insert 18-20 threat weapon here], he would threaten a critical on a 10+, thus possibly killing the enemy. That seemed a bit cheesy, and Monte himself allows the Vorpal ability to function only in the original weapon's threatening range..

 

[Sejs]

*begin Grumpy Old Man mode*
Vorpal weapons. Feh! Ooh yeah sure, those PCs just -love- their Vorpal weapons. Mm hmm.. sure they do, up until they have to fight a competant user who has one himself. Bah! Humbug I say! Then they all cry "Oh that's not fair! He just killed me outright! Boo-hoo!" Well guess what, Sunny Jim? The hand's on the other foot now, idnit?! Don't ask fer somethin' yer not willin' ta deal with yerself first!

*end Grumpy Old Man mode*

Ah. That's better. Glad I got that out of my system.

^_^

 

[kreynolds]

I seem to recall someone saying that Vorpal weapons only chop off heads on a critical within the natural threat range of a weapon. I can't remember if that was a house rule, sage advice or just some chum talking though.

Veldrane is correct. The rules as written allow vorpal, and all other critical hit activated enhancements as well, to function on the complete/modified threat range, not just the natural threat range. However, Monte isn't the only one that suggested otherwise. Even the Sage said you wouldn't catch any flak from him if you ruled otherwise. Here's his reply on the subject...

Howdy Skip,

I have a question regarding burst enhancements, vorpal enhancements, etc. These enhancements activate when you score a critical hit. My question is this: Will the Improved Critical feat or the Keen weapon enhancement, which both increase the threat range of the weapon, also apply to the burst/vorpal enhancement?

Yes (but if you want to bar that in your game you won't get any grief from me).

There seem to be two sides to this argument.
1) The burst/vorpal enhancements use the end-result threat range of the weapon (i.e. they take into account Improved Critical or Keen).

This one's technically correct.

2) The burst/vorpal enhancements use the original unmodified threat range of the weapon.

This one probably is less problematical in the long run.

Skip Williams
RPG R&D

Myself? I use the complete/modified threat range in all my games. Hasn't posed a problem either.

 

[Creeperman]

Myself? I use the complete/modified threat range in all my games. Hasn't posed a problem either.

Of course, you modified Vorpal to a massive amount of damage, instead of an automatic decapitation. And kudos to you for it. Vorpal is hideously overpowered for only +5, when you start comparing it with the "epic" powers that only do a handful of dice extra for more plus-equivalents.

To the original poster; go look on the House Rules forum for additional discussion on this topic, if you're interested in cutting down the Vorpal power.

 

[kreynolds]

Of course, you modified Vorpal to a massive amount of damage, instead of an automatic decapitation.

Yes, I did, but that isn't really the point. Flaming Burst, for example, activates on the full threat range, and a lot of people don't like that, so they house rule to what both Monte and Skip support. It isn't just about Vorpal. It's about all of them. The only reason I recreated the Vorpal enhancement was because the original was just a big pain in the butt to deal with.

The funny part is that some people don't like Vorpal functioning on the full threat range, but they don't mind flaming burst doing the same thing. That, among many other things, was further proof to me that the original Vorpal needed a "fix".

 

[Apok]

The funny part is that some people don't like Vorpal functioning on the full threat range, but they don't mind flaming burst doing the same thing.

Well, um... yeah.

Considering the fact that if you crit w/ a Burst weapon you're only doing an extra couple of d10's worth of energy damage, but if you crit with a Vorpal weapon you cut the poor bloke's friggin' head off!

So, I can understand their feelings on this matter.

Out of curiosity, what is your fix to the Vorpal enchantment?

 

[Apok]

Yes, you can have a Keen Vorpal (insert slashing weapon here). You could not have a +5 Keen Vorpal sword though, as the total bonus there would be +11.

Well, technically you could have a +5 Keen Vorpal weapon but it would be considered an Epic Magic Item, and those can get damn expensive.

 

[kreynolds]

Considering the fact...

Exactly, which is precisely why I changed Vorpal. I can't logically justify limiting one enhancement and not limiting all the others when they all work upon the same premise.

Out of curiosity, what is your fix to the Vorpal enchantment?

The latest one you'll find on the boards is here. However, I've made a couple of tweaks since then.