Is the Illusionist Dead?

[Mouseferatu]

Illusions are all about misdirection and versatility. If you're looking for damage output, you shouldn't be looking at illusionists. An illusionist can create ANY type of monster, not just those on the Summon Monster tables. Other spellcasters are limited by what the specific effects of a spell are. Illusion magic has no such limitation; you can create pretty much whatever you want. A fireball spell just lets create a ball of fire; illusions can make that ball a meteor shower or rain or whatever. That's where the creativity comes into play...

Oh believe me, I'm not looking to turn the illusionist into just another evoker or conjurer. Illusions should, indeed, be about misdirection and versatility, as you say.

The problem is, the game simply isn't designed for it. If you have a good DM, who's willing to work with you, you can play an illusionist. But it shouldn't require a specific type of DM, IMO. Illusionists should be just as viable as other specialists, and I simply don't feel they are. It's just too easy to detect illusions, and the circumstances in which an illusionist can be truly effective are far more limited than those in which other casters are truly effective.

Thus, my proposal above. I don't want illusionists to be dishing out damage left and right. If I did, I wouldn't have suggested that their illusions do less damage than the real thing, nor would I have suggested that they do nonlethal. But even in the real world, people under hypnotic suggestion will develop blisters if they're convinced they've been burned. A mystical illusion should have at least the possibility of making someone feel real pain and think they've been struck by something.

 

[helium3]

Shadow Conjurations are worthless. Let's see, for a fourth level spell, I can cast a FAKE version of a 3rd level conjuration spell. WOW. That's useful. So rather than
surrounding myself with real monsters, I'm going to spend a more valuable spell to surround myself with fake monsters with 1/5th the hit points because I'm an illusionist! If someone can explain to me the use of these spells, I'd like to know that as well.

Shadow Evocation is merely okay. It's versatile, but that's about it. Once again you have to blow your high-level spell to launch a fake lower level spell.

Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation ROCK for sorcerers. They allow a LOT more versatility. As long as your opponent can't make a spellcraft check, that is. Even then, if the Will Save DC is high enough, it doesn't even matter.

 

[Simplicity]

Other spellcasters are limited by what the specific effects of a spell are. Illusion magic has no such limitation; you can create pretty much whatever you want. A fireball spell just lets create a ball of fire; illusions can make that ball a meteor shower or rain or whatever. That's where the creativity comes into play...

That's no excuse for Wizards not giving simple rules on how to adjudicate illusionary effects
so that ANY DM can handle illusions consistently. There is a fairly small set of very common things which are done with illusions.

1) If I want to create a adult red dragon to attack the party with my major image spell... fine. Why don't I have rules for how that works? How hard would that be?

Simple Rule: Major and silent image work like shadow conjuration spells except that taking ANY damage destroys the illusion and the illusions do no damage themselves regardless of belief/disbelief.

Too bad I don't know whether that would be a good ruling or not...

2) If I want to cover a pit with an illusionary floor... Does the player get to disbelieve BEFORE stepping on it (I would guess not). Do they get a reflex save if they believe in the illusion?

3) If I want to cover a doorway with an illusion... What happens if a player runs into the "wall" while believing in the illusion? Do they take damage? Is there such a thing as "illusionary damage"?

The other problem with illusionary spells is that the Spellcraft skill (which almost every mage has) total negates virtually every spell... Your meteor swarm isn't so useful when my Spellcraft skill detects a 2nd level crap spell.

4) If I want to create an illusion of someone somebody else knows... Do I roll a Disguise check to see through that? In addition to the Will save?

 

[Simplicity]

Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation ROCK for sorcerers. They allow a LOT more versatility. As long as your opponent can't make a spellcraft check, that is. Even then, if the Will Save DC is high enough, it doesn't even matter.

HOW? How do you use shadow conjuration successfully? Why wouldn't a sorcerer be far better knowing Summon Monster IV, and casting that a buttload of times rather than casting fake versions of Summon Monster III, II, or I?

I don't consider being able to give up a fourth level spell slot for a fake version of Melf's versitile... I consider that foolish.

 

[jgsugden]

The problems with illusionists as PCs in 3.5 are easy to identify. We’ve had a good discussion of them so far:

1.) They don’t do much, if any, real damage directly.
2.) Their effects are generally ‘save to negate’.
3.) It is hard to ‘set up’ a situation where an enemy falling for an illusion will hurt itself unless you know the terrain in advance (which dungeon delving PCs rarely do) and your enemy doesn’t (which is rarely the case).
4.) True seeing negates most illusions and is far too common at high levels.
5.) There are few enough illusion spells that specializing often is not worth the cost.
6.) Many true illusions have a duration of concentration, meaning that the wizard is stuck with little he can do while the illusion is in effect. This effectively increases the cost of the spell to many rounds of casting time.
7.) If your foe *knows* you made an illusion, he doesn’t need to save at all.

The advantages are also easy to identify:

1.) Illusions are the most versatile type of spells in the game.
2.) A failed save often negates an opponent entirely.
3.) Many of the high damage dealing foes (giants, etc...) have low will saves as it is often a bad save for burly types and most burly types have lower wisdom than dexterity or constitution.
4.) Illusions have a duration of concentration, meaning that they can last for very long periods of time.
5.) *You do not get a save versus an illusion (figment, etc ...) until you interact with it or study it*. As such, an illusion can do its job with no save available for your enemy.

The 5th advantage in my list of the advantages is often overlooked by players and DMs. This is the key rule, in my mind, to be successful with illusions. For instance, if I create an illusion of a ledge roughly 10 feet down the side of a cliff with a glowing sword balanced precariously on the edge of it, an enemy that sees the illusion does not get a save because he has seen the illusion. He doe not get a save because he plans to leap down and grab the sword. He only gets a save when he either leaps down (and passes through the ledge and falls to his death) *or* he says he is stopping to study the sword. Actually, the save is a bit of a waste in this instance, as passing through the invisible ledge means that he automatically knows it is an illusion.

 

[jokamachi]

Illusion are alive and well in my games, as are the ones creating them.

 

[sfedi]

I don't think th eillusionist is dead, but that illusion magic sucks.

 

[Simplicity]

I don't think th eillusionist is dead, but that illusion magic sucks.

How about the illusionist is going to soon die because illusion magic sucks?

 

[VirgilCaine]

The last enemy wizard my PCs faced was an illusionist. Didn't really get to see him in action since he failed a Will save against Confusion, but it was nice to see what Illusion could do when I stat'ed him out. Invisibility is there, the Shadow spells are really useful, as are Mirror Image, Displacement, Phantasmal Killer, Rainbow Pattern and loads of cool illusion spells. A prepared illusionist who knows the PCs are coming is very dangerous.

Pinotage

A prepared wizard period is dangerous...illusionists doubly so.

 

[brehobit]

The problems with illusionists as PCs in 3.5 are easy to identify. We’ve had a good discussion of them so far:
5.) *You do not get a save versus an illusion (figment, etc ...) until you interact with it or study it*. As such, an illusion can do its job with no save available for your enemy.

The 5th advantage in my list of the advantages is often overlooked by players and DMs. This is the key rule, in my mind, to be successful with illusions. For instance, if I create an illusion of a ledge roughly 10 feet down the side of a cliff with a glowing sword balanced precariously on the edge of it, an enemy that sees the illusion does not get a save because he has seen the illusion. He doe not get a save because he plans to leap down and grab the sword. He only gets a save when he either leaps down (and passes through the ledge and falls to his death) *or* he says he is stopping to study the sword. Actually, the save is a bit of a waste in this instance, as passing through the invisible ledge means that he automatically knows it is an illusion.

Exactly. Illusions over pits or cliffs are just great. At least at lowish levels (once everyone has flight, not so useful). Also, don't underestimate using illusions to hide behind. I really like creating a tree or something which fits into the background and then stepping into it. You can fire freely out of the tree (100% concelment). Better yet, you can cast spells with very little chance of anyone figuring out what you are casting. Summoning spells, etc. work really well as there should be no reason to believe the tree is an illusion.

Fake walls of stone are also great that way. 1st level spell, and odds are good the baddies won't guess it is fake. I mean, do they guess that walls created by real wizards are fake? In a magical world, lots of things can look real.

I also like the fake summoning of an Elder elemental or some such. Should scare anyone as such a summoning should generally seem reasonable (unless the NPCs are metagaming and think there is no way they could be facing an 17th level party...)