Improved Familiars

[Nail]

Let's drop the "imp as potential familiar in core 3.0e" arguement. Not only is it mostly pointless, but Frank's interp. ranges quite far afield from what was accepted.

The entire feat is just short hand. And what you get is so small compared to the other shorthand feats (leadership, landlord), as to be laughable.

This, at least, is arguable. The idea with the improved familiar feat is that the little bugger becomes your familiar - that is, you can share spells, communicate telepathically, etc. Given the option of a pseudodragon or imp, this is a good feat.

That is to say: there is a substantial difference between having a cohort vs. having a familiar. The familiar is better.

 

[jgsugden]

What do improved familiars grant their masters? Nothing beyond the familiar basics. They can deliver touch spells, be scryed, etc ... but they give no psuedo feats like normal familiars.

Why take improved familiar instead of leadership? If you take leadership, your familiar advances normally for his race. He grants you no special familiar tricks (scrying on it, deliver touch spells, etc ...) and receives no bonus to natural armor, hit points, hit dice or intelligence. Having a psuedo-dragon as a cohort versus having one as a familiar is an entirely different situation.

Could you have an imp with out the improved familiar feat in 3.0? WotC didn't think so, or else they would not have created the Improved Familiar feat.

 

[FrankTrollman]

That is to say: there is a substantial difference between having a cohort vs. having a familiar. The familiar is better.

Is it three CR and a pile of dretches better?

-Frank

 

[Artoomis]

If "small" is not the game term "Small", then "animal" is likewise not the game term "Animal". This is "animal" in the sense that a Manticore (a Magical Beast) is given as an example of an "animal" on page 236 of the same book.

The existence of the non-core Improved Familiar feat does not prevent you from just getting an improved familiar in play without feat expenditure. In the same way that the non-core "Wealth" Infernal Pact prevents you from getting 15,000 gold pieces in play without feat expenditure.

The entire feat is just short hand. And what you get is so small compared to the other shorthand feats (leadership, landlord), as to be laughable.

-Frank

Frank, are you really serious?

We are talking 3.0e here, just to be clear, since this was clarified in 3.5e.

A familiar is a magical, unusually tough, and intelligent version of a small animal. It is a magical beast, not an animal.

Defining it as a magical beast rather than animal pretty clearly means it had to be an "animal" in the D&D sense.

Nothing really truly restricts you to only the list presented, but it ought to be obvious that any other creature should be similar to the ones presented.

Tome and Blood (and, now the DMG) presented rules for how you get different familiars. I am truly at a loss for how you could honetly think you could get any small creature under 3.0e rules.

Now way - not by the core rules. Not even by twisting the reading of the rules around can you possibly honestly come to the conclusion that you could get any small creature as your familiar.

If you truly believe this, I am SO glad you are not one of our players.

If, on the other hand, you are simply trying to state that the rules technically say one thing, even if nobody would ever dream of doing it that way, then I disagree, but I can appreciate a good intellectual argument. Even if this has not really been one yet. But it still has potential.

 

[BVB]

Frank, are you really serious? ...

Is it so easy to overlook Franks' last name?

 

[BVB]

Frank, are you really serious? ...

Is it so easy to overlook Frank's last name?

 

[Nail]

Is it three CR and a pile of dretches better?

I'm assuming you mean the appropriate cohort and followers using the Leadership feat.

No, a Cr 3 monster and a pile of dretches are not better, unless you mean in a very narrow, mano-a-mano combat sense.

Moreover, any DM worth his salt would make it.....awkward to use those dretches in the same way you could use a familiar.

 

[Nail]

Is it three CR and a pile of dretches better?

I'm assuming you mean the appropriate cohort and followers using the Leadership feat.

No, a Cr 3 monster and a pile of dretches are not better, unless you mean in a very narrow, mano-a-mano combat sense.

Moreover, any DM worth his salt would make it.....awkward to use those dretches in the same way you could use a familiar.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Let's consider this:

You are a wizard with a charisma of 8, who is the minimum level to take Improved Familiar and get an Imp (I use Imp, not because I think most players are lawful evil, but because it is hands down the best creature on the list, and thus makes the best point of comparison). That level is nine, btw, as you don't actually get a feat at 7th or 8th level.

So there you are with a charisma penalty and a character level of nine. That's not exactly the best place to begin when taking Leadership. But you probably have a Great Prestige reputation and a reputation for Special Power (because you are a ninth level PC Wizard). It is also time to get off your butt and summon a familiar. So your choices are: take the Improved Familiar Feat and get an Imp, or Summon up a Raven and take the Leadership Feat.

So what do you get for the Improved Familiar feat? You get a Familiar, who is an Imp. Imps are pretty cool, so that's not all that bad.

So what do you get for Leadership? Your Leadership score is only 9 for the purposes of attracting a cohort (because getting a familiar is dropping your score by 2 for that purpose), but it's 13 for the purpose of attracting followers (because having a house adds 2 to your score for that purpose). So you get one CR 6 cohort, and a CR 2 follower, and ten CR 1 followers. And you get a Raven Familiar.

So your choice is:

1 Imp, Familiar.

OR:

1 Raven, Familiar
1 Erinyes, Cohort
1 Imp, Follower
10 artisans and apprentices, Followers.

How can you look at those two piles and not immediately see that the second pile is bigger? And we haven't even maxxed out the Leadership here. Heck, we are dealing with a character who assigned his lowest priority to Charisma and never increased it with magic. Obviously, if this was a Sorcerer instead of a Wizard it would be even more one sided.

Is there some amazing synnergy between an Imp's abilities and a familiar's benefits that I am totally missing, or is it in fact in all ways superior to have a "normal" Erinyes and Imp following your orders while your familiar contents itself with exactly the same bonuses to a Raven chasis.

Frank, are you really serious?

Yes. The 3rd edition PHB defines "animal" as including Manticores and any other mobile creature with a nervous system. Unless we capitalize it, "animal" means the real world definition of "animal".

As to game balance, based on how extremely small the power of an Imp is compared to a 9th level Wizard, is it unbalanced for them to have it for free? Of course not! It's just an Imp. With Lesser Planar Binding they can mass produce those things, and still have a regular familiar which gives them bonuses of some kind.

-Frank

 

[Camarath]

Trollman what is your point? Leadership is a DM's option feat that you may or may not be allowed to take or to find the Cohort and Followers (which are normally PC races with NPC classes) you desire if you are allowed to take it. By a like coin your argument that the use of the word "animal" in this case includes any creature that could fit under any definition of the word animal and thus you can take any creature you wish as a Familiar would I think be struck down by most DMs. You can stretch the rules all you like but you are veering into the realm of house rules here. Theoretically by your reasoning one could take a Great Wyrm as a Familiar because it fits the technical definition of an animal and is small when compared to the earth.