D&D 5E Idea to handle the "ghoul problem"

They do all roughly work the same (though not quite as much as I like). d20 + ability modifier + training versus a DC set by the activity.

Yes but that's not the point, is it? They all have an extra bonus beyond just the ability score itself. Only saving throws (up until now) have just the ability score without an extra bonus. That's why they lag behind and that's why Mearls said in the postmortem that this would change.



The problem is that there are a vast number of effects that no amount of training or experience can help you resist. Even those that do, such as most dexterity saves, seem like the exact sort of thing that is best represented by an increased dexterity score. Save bonuses don't represent anything that isn't already being represented.

That is very much open to debate. A saving throw bonus to Dexterity saves (to keep using that example) could represent an increase in reaction time, but not an increase so comprehensive that the entire ability score needs to be increased - because that would also increase aim, balance, etc. In short, you state your opinion as fact. I have no problem with your opinion but it's not as objective or clear cut as you make it sound.
 

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The Claw Claw Bite thing is a prehistoric issue with D&D - one attack per weapon regardless of the plausibility of being able to direct them all. It applies to two weapon fighting too IMO. I feel there are only a handful of reasons for giving multiple attack abilities. These overlap to some extent.

1) Attacking multiple targets at once, usually large attackers eg Giants sweeping their clubs, Triceratops trampling several opponents.
2) "Solo" monsters" who need to multiply their actions in a round to keep up with the action economy. Dragons, The Watcher in the Water.
3) Highly skilled individuals who feel wrong doing massive damage in single attacks but need to do lots of damage per round or who feel like they ought to be able to carry out a lot of attacks. Marilliths, Zorro.
4) Combo Attacks that need to have several pieces come together to get a big effect ie. lowering the probability for a big effect going off. Bear Hugs or Scorpion Stings. However this really is a clunky slow way of achieving the effect.

Ignoring 4 as I think it's a bad reason really the others feel valid with some reservations eg
Giving a master swordsman the ability to make 3 normal attacks as an action feels like clean efficient design while giving a giant the same ability feels like lazy design & he should get an attack multiple targets ability. In either case though the fact that an attack represents a flurry of actions means that one attack/dice roll is reasonable. Making it several attacks allows for it to be split across targets if you take down one though so it's worthwhile if it's not on too many villains.

Giving a dragon a claw claw bite routine seems OK but not a lion, & even then the dragon can be substantially improved as shown by the legendary templates.
 

About the claw/claw/bite, I think this is a perfect example to suggest the designers to have less multiattacks.

This attack routine just describes a creature using whatever natural weapons it has all at once, but D&D attacks have always been described as doing a series of attempts, strikes and glances, without going into the details. One attack with the sword could be more than one strikes, who cares if it's one or two or three? All that matters is whether they hit (thus deal damage, trigger special effects etc.) or not. So it could be just the same for average monsters, who cares if they hit with the left paw or something else?

Some monsters OTOH, could have very different weapons, like a poisonous bite and non-poisonous (but maybe with higher damage) claws. Still, I don't see a very important reason why these couldn't just be used in separate rounds.

Let's keep in mind that multiattacks always slow combat down. Thus it's better to reserve them for monsters that you want to emphasize they are very fast, or very big an'cleaving through enemies, or with many limbs. Everybody else can probably work just fine with 1 attack per round.

Notice that it's a little bit different for the PCs because a high level Fighter could be facing many smaller opponents in the same battle, and being able to drop multiple foes in the same round (eg chopping them down while moving, or shooting them with arrows) makes sense and is a valid character concept. But monsters are not normally dropping multiple PCs in the same round!
 

As a DM, I like to challenge my players but I don't like to use hordes of monsters to do it. I like multi-attack monsters.

The newer version of the ghoul in the Against the Slave Lord Bestiary is better (as Plaguescarred mentioned)

+4 to hit

The claw attacks DC 11 vs. paralysis
The bit attack has no paralysis

In 4e, the ghoul could only bite a paralyzed victim (I believe), but the bite did more damage. I could go with that too.

Or, as someone else mentioned, I could go with just the bite doing the paralysis (something about ghoul saliva).

I don't want to castrate the ghoul too badly though. Some creatures are just plain nasty. It's ok if the DM needs to figure out a way to avert TPK when players don't deserve it.
 

Part of the ridiculousness of claw/claw/bite went to worse extremes of the "a monster gets attacks for every non-walking limb it has" guideline they used when it came to things like Octopi and Squids when they get at least 8 attacks for each tentacle, it probably got even worse with the Hectatonchires.

I'd prefer it if many monsters like Ghouls just got 1 attack, as for the paralysis effect it should either be progressive from something like restrained to paralyzed. They should still keep the save every round to shrug off the effect too.
 

The problem is that there are a vast number of effects that no amount of training or experience can help you resist.

I think "in the real world" should be appended to that statement. In a world with magic, gods and demons its feasible you can gain training or experience in resisting things that'd be inconcievable to do likewise in our world. I think a big reflection of that in D&D is in the monk class, and the movies/stories/theology behind the class.
 

Some monsters OTOH, could have very different weapons, like a poisonous bite and non-poisonous (but maybe with higher damage) claws. Still, I don't see a very important reason why these couldn't just be used in separate rounds.

Let's take a giant scorpion, for example. I don't have access to the real stats, but let's say under the current rules it gets two claw attacks at +3 to hit (1d4 damage each) and a tail sting at +1 to hit (1d4 damage + poison).

Pesonally, I'd like to see this turned into one attack at +5 to hit that deals 1d12 damage + poison. The +2 bonus comes from treating the additional attacks as "assist other" sort of bonus and the poison save takes care of determining whether the tail "hit". The 1d12 damage accounts for the fact that from one to three of the attacks could hit, so you get the whole damage range in one go.

If our scorpion needed to attack more than one foe, we could give it a special attack/stunt:

multiattack: The scorpion can attack up to 3 targets at +3 to hit, dealing 1d4 damage. It may nominate one of the attacks to be poisonous (before rolling the attack).

Now, granted, that is a simple attack, but it shouldn't be too hard to do something similar to other monsters - even dragons or sweep attacks from a giant's club.

And what about the fighter and his multiple attacks? Instead of granting an extra attack, give the fighter a +1 or +2 bonus to hit and just bump the damage up by 1d6 to account for the extra swings.

Finally, what about the two weapon fighters - say someone with a longsword (d8) and dagger (d4)? Simple - one attack at +2 to hit that deals 1d12 damage, add Strength bonus once. Two longsword? Well, that'd be little trickier - got a d16 or an easy method to equate one?
 

It seems to me that the answer is to get rid of multiple attacks for the Ghoul.

In general, I think a creature should only get multiple attacks as a method for attacking multiple opponents. Otherwise, it's messes with the abstraction that is an attack.

I strongly agree too. If there is need to make them scarier have them hit better and/or harder, but no need for all the attacks from a Ghoul.
 



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