D&D 5E How would YOU nerf the wizard? +

[Lanefan]

That's what the pop culture idea of what a wizard is, though. Its casting magic regularly, probably a beard, robes, and not being great at other weapons (except maybe sometimes a sword), moreso using a staff or wand.

The "probably a beard" piece seems rather limiting...

The one aspect of pop culture wizards (excluding Harry Potter) that D&D doesn't model in play - and never has - is their age. Even in typical D&D art, most wizards are portrayed as being at least middle-aged if not older; yet D&D characters almost universally start out quite young and then don't age much due to the campaign only lasting for less than an in-game year.

Crossbows and darts just, ain't it. People will clash against the idea if it doesn't match with what they think a wizard should be doing, and will reject the class or. See all the stuff done to make the Four Elements monk fit with what people want from that class, which is "I want Avatar the Last Airbender"

The wizard has to evolve with the way people play the game and what they expect from it, you can't keep it around acting like it did back in the day as a dead husk of the past completely divorced from the modern idea of what its called. Otherwise, just re-name the old wizard instead, and let an actual wizard, based around the popular perception of what that is, take its place.

Or, keep the wizard as it is and invent new classes to suit those modern perceptions....says me, in direct conflict with my stance that there's already too many caster classes.

 

[Lanefan]

1. So here is my example. In D&D, you use a spell slot and cast fireball. It does damage in an area guaranteed. Now, how much damage is complicated based on saving throw, resistance/immunity, evasion or other features, legendary resistance, etc. But the effect is consistent. Compare to something like DCC's system where you roll to see how effectively you cast the spell with a poor roll and do barely any effect to roll high and blow up your party. That fits DCC's style which is very yolo, but I don't find it fits D&D.

In between those two examples is something that fits D&D quite well IMO, and that's the 1e fireball that sometimes-dangerously expaned to fill its allotted volume no matter what.

3. To me, the fantasy of the class is someone who can use magic as effectively as a fighter swings a sword. I don't want to shoot a crossbow, I want to shoot bolts of fire from my fingers. I want to create magic shields, float above the ground, and use complex magic to overcome obstacles.

And yet if you're doing that sort of thing as often as a Fighter swings a sword, there's very quickly no use for the Fighter any more.

To me, it's more a tortoise-and-hare relationship: the Fighter does less but can keep doing it all day long, while the Mage does a lot but can only do it in a very few limited bursts before having to take a breather for the night.

4ish. I want to feel competent, not overpowered. Previously, magic users started out incompetent and ended overpowered. I want to adjust the range and scope of spells rather than overhaul the whole of magic, and I'm willing to sacrifice things like wish to keep the wizard's power line in check.

Long-term cumulative balance is still balance; and given that the highest-level PCs I've ever DMed got to a mighty 12th level I'd be truly amazed were I ever to have a game get to the point where a PC Mage could hard-cast Wish in the field.

 

[Remathilis]

In between those two examples is something that fits D&D quite well IMO, and that's the 1e fireball that sometimes-dangerously expaned to fill its allotted volume no matter what.

I am not advocating magic should be utterly riskless, just that I would hate to see every spell cast be a cost/benefit analysis beyond what it already is. The old fireball was usually worth the risk if you understood volume; the old haste with its mandatory aging/system shock roll was not.

And yet if you're doing that sort of thing as often as a Fighter swings a sword, there's very quickly no use for the Fighter any more.

To me, it's more a tortoise-and-hare relationship: the Fighter does less but can keep doing it all day long, while the Mage does a lot but can only do it in a very few limited bursts before having to take a breather for the night.

I actually think the 5e cantrip system more-or-less handles that well. The wizard gets a few repeatable effects like fire bolt they use as their fallback attack in between those limited bursts. Likewise, the fighter has a few "limited burst" abilities like action surge they can do between rests. In my perfect world, the wizard would have a few more at-will effects and the fighter a few more burst effects. Not perfect symmetry like 4e tried, but refining the notion that a wizard always has a few minor magics and the fighter his basic attacks, but both can do more remarkable things a limited number of times per rest.

Long-term cumulative balance is still balance; and given that the highest-level PCs I've ever DMed got to a mighty 12th level I'd be truly amazed were I ever to have a game get to the point where a PC Mage could hard-cast Wish in the field.

After playing almost 30 years, Ilong-term balance is an illusion of balance. People want their characters to be relevant at all stages of the game. They don't want to start out strong and grow increasingly irrelevant nor do they want to wait for the near end of the game to dominate. It's the same reason level limits for races were a bad balancing system. I'd much rather the fighter and wizard be closer in power at levels 1, 10, and 20, than the fighter to lose relevance as the wizard becomes the star of the show.

 

[Gammadoodler]

The "probably a beard" piece seems rather limiting...

Perhaps there is a causal link between spellcasting and hair growth?

 

[Horwath]

Drastically nerfed their spell casting damage ability.

That's it. That's the whole thing. Make fireball deal a lot less damage, do similar with other spells. Leave the rest intact.

fireball is really the least problem with the wizard.

if anything, rest of spells deal too little damage and upscaling is beyond horrible.

 

[Steampunkette]

fireball is really the least problem with the wizard.

if anything, rest of spells deal too little damage and upscaling is beyond horrible.

I disagree. I think Wizards and Sorcerers and such should be able to do really crazy wild cool stuff.

I think their strict damage output should be curtailed. Let them do the weird stuff and travel massive distances in the blink of an eye, and trade it off for combat-capability. Lower overall damage, leave the utility intact, but make them solid at spreading moderate damage over a wide area to eliminate large numbers of minions or wound mid-level opponents.

 

[Reynard]

I disagree. I think Wizards and Sorcerers and such should be able to do really crazy wild cool stuff.

I think their strict damage output should be curtailed. Let them do the weird stuff and travel massive distances in the blink of an eye, and trade it off for combat-capability. Lower overall damage, leave the utility intact, but make them solid at spreading moderate damage over a wide area to eliminate large numbers of minions or wound mid-level opponents.

The utility seems to largely be the concern, though. people don't like that the wizard can do everyone's job better than they can.

 

[FrogReaver]

The utility seems to largely be the concern, though. people don't like that the wizard can do everyone's job better than they can.

I think those complaints about utility evaporate if wizard is not so good at combat.

Edit: You see this to some degree with rogues vs other martials and most rogues are only slightly worse at combat than most other martial classes.

 

[Reynard]

I think those complaints about utility evaporate if wizard is not so good at combat.

I'm not so sure.

 

[Steampunkette]

I'm not so sure.

In truth, neither am I.

But it would give Wizardly types a tradeoff of being utility-focused with some AoE damage ability and lesser single-target capability, making fighters/rogues/etc better at single-target.

Which in 4e helped to reign in some of the Caster/Martial arguments. They didn't -entirely- vanish... but it helped.