D&D 5E Here's why we want a Psion class

[Fenris-77]

Since that series is actually foundational for the idea of psionics in D&D I don't sure it's a bad point to bring up. The 'definition' of psionics has changed and been modified a ton since 1E and the first books of the series. Specifically, the notion that magic is fantasy and psionics is Sci-Fi isn't something that's baked into psionics as a general idea (at all). It's developed as a genre convention mostly to serve as genre separation. Serious sci-fi books can't have magic, so we need to call it something else. Meh, whatevs says I.

I think Games Workshop might be the main culprit in the magic/psionic separation in tabletop gaming since that's the distinction they use for WHF and WH40K. That's neither here nor there though. D&D I think pretty much is the tradition of psionics in fantasy, and that hasn't been consistent from edition to edition.

 

[Fenris-77]

Second, you didn't meet what D&D(not me) established as being the Psion class,

First, the definition of the class isn't stable from edition to edition. Second, what you're actually talking about is the options baked into the class, not the resulting character. The character I described is very much a possible psion build in previous editions. You won't be happy unless the psion 'class' has full seven discipline access though. That's what you'd like to see however and not a meaningful definition outside of that. A full replica of previous psionic ability range isn't necessary to make a psion class for 5E, it's just what you'd like. What a psion looked like in previous editions is immaterial. I suspect you are going to continue to mistake what you'd like for something that is immutably written in the canon of the game. C'est la vie.

 

[Maxperson]

First, the definition of the class isn't stable from edition to edition.

Sure it is. Only the specific mechanical implementation varies. In all editions it has appeared in, the psion(icist) is a pure caster.

 

[Hussar]

Sure it is. Only the specific mechanical implementation varies. In all editions it has appeared in, the psion(icist) is a pure caster.

Not really. A 2e Psion wasn't a pure caster. It didn't follow any of the other caster classes, didn't have 9 levels of spells (or 7 depending on what edition you want to look at) and a 2e Psion's powers used the proficiency rules, and not the casting rules at all.

 

[Hussar]

Since that series is actually foundational for the idea of psionics in D&D I don't sure it's a bad point to bring up. The 'definition' of psionics has changed and been modified a ton since 1E and the first books of the series. Specifically, the notion that magic is fantasy and psionics is Sci-Fi isn't something that's baked into psionics as a general idea (at all). It's developed as a genre convention mostly to serve as genre separation. Serious sci-fi books can't have magic, so we need to call it something else. Meh, whatevs says I.

I think Games Workshop might be the main culprit in the magic/psionic separation in tabletop gaming since that's the distinction they use for WHF and WH40K. That's neither here nor there though. D&D I think pretty much is the tradition of psionics in fantasy, and that hasn't been consistent from edition to edition.

It's much, much older than that. The notion of psionics came about in the 50's (IIRC) as a way for SF writers to get around limitations in reality. Anne McCaffery's Pern series features telepathic dragons that can teleport. But, they are not magical at all. They are psionics. The setting doesn't have magic at all.

You have the genre convention backwards. Psionics was brought in as a way for SF writers to have magic. And, as such, you (very, very) rarely see the two of them in the same setting.

 

[Maxperson]

Not really. A 2e Psion wasn't a pure caster.

Yes it was. It did nothing else.

It didn't follow any of the other caster classes, didn't have 9 levels of spells (or 7 depending on what edition you want to look at) and a 2e Psion's powers used the proficiency rules, and not the casting rules at all.

Not really relevant. It had different mechanics than the other casting classes, but it did nothing but cast.

 

[Hussar]

So, mechanically, it shared nothing with casters, but, it was a full caster. Got it.

So, basically, a sorcerer sub class covers psion then right? After all, if all we need is a full caster, then, poof, done.

 

[grimslade]

How did we get so heated over a potential addition to the rules? I understand being passionate, but we need to step back here and evaluate what we are arguing about.
I want a psion class. I do not want a sorcerer or a wizard. We have those and they are very successful for filling the Vancian magic system. I want a new magic system. Not spell slots. Not spell points. It could be skill-based or even pseudo- dice pool like the Psionic Talent die.
5E is robust enough to warrant an expansion of the ruleset. The Psiknight is a pretty good representation of the psychic warrior for 5e, but it also feels like a lost opportunity to broaden the rules. The psychic soul sorcerer is a neat subclass but does not feel like psionicist or psion.

 

[Minigiant]

Aha, you got me @Mistwell. You could dredge up a single example from a forty year old series. Good for you. Have a cookie. I'll admit to never having read the novels although Wikipedia calls it using magic, not psionics and, as a point, do they use BOTH? Do they actually have two completely different traditions of supernatural powers - one purely magical and the other purely the power of the mind?

Now, can we actually get back to reality where (almost - as in only a vanishingly small number don't) the overwhelming majority of genre fiction works do not mix magic and psionics and not pick nits?

Is it seriously a contentious thing to say that psionics doesn't really have much of a tradition in fantasy?

Again it depends on what you call psionics.

Because to me there are really 3 types of psionics you see in media.

1. The wizard of another name
2. The user of a set of abilities activated by mind
3. The master of mental abilities

1 & 2 are rare in fantasy. 1 is extremely rare and usually only found in fiction where the subject is purposely avoided for being called a wizard. 2 is rarely rare but can be see in fantasy with other races and people of special birth or fate.

3 is uncommon. The issue is it is not found in European based fantasy. It's more common in nonEuropean fantasy. In fantasy, people with mental powers look more like monks. Or they were of high races or special birth. Elves with telepathy. Priests who can see the dead. Warriors who can boost their speed and strength via mental focus. Old men who can knock people down from afar.

But why? Possibly that supernatural characters as main characters was rare in fantasy until the last 30 years. It was rare to have more than 2 swizards on the side of good as noteable main or supporting characters in a book. So it would be rare to see mutliple types of supernatural power users.

Except in sci fi. Sci-fi's tendency to remove the word magic and give each advanced science a new power expanded the number of psychics in the genre.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Because those aren't my thing. You know what I wouldn't do? Poo poo on them if WotC wanted to make one or others wanted to have them in the game.

If D&D design and resources were more in line with Buckminster Fuller, then when one person gets what they wanted, we all do, if one person loses, we all do.

Unfortunately, D&D resources and design time does not exist in a “Bucky Dome”.....
..........It lives in a Thunder Dome!

Two ideas enter, one idea gets published.

“So ladies and gentlmen, boys and girls....
DYING TIME IS HERE”

If the psion class must die for a revised ranger, or a demonoligist/summoner class, or any of a hundred other things, that I care about more than a stand alone psion class, then the Psion dies!.

This is Thunder Dome, not Bucky Dome!

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note: Post meant, (mainly), in jest. If I see one more thread on Psionics, I’m going to go back to reading more covid 19 stories....as a break
Wake me up when the thread hits, page 20.