Gygax's views on OGL

[buzzard]

The debate of OGL vs non-OGL systems has already been decided by a little rivalry between Apple and Microsoft. Apple said that only apple could write their software, Microsoft let anyone do it...The latter's shrewd business (for good and ill) has given them the top spot in the market.

OK just so you get history straight, this paragraph has nothing whatsoever to do with the truth.

Apple lost because they wouldn't let anybody else make hardware which sported their OS. Microsoft was never a hardware vendor.

By the time Apple did try to allow clones, the battle was already decided because Microsoft finaly came out with a viable alternative. Had Apple allowed cloning before Windows 95, they may well have won. It's a moot point now.

Oh, and for the argument that Open Software was necessary to the Internet, well that's bunk as well. Open standards are necessary, sure. That has nothing to do with open source software. They are completely different beasts. The internet was around way before the open source movement. Even the web was popularized using closed source software. Heck the most popular browser today is still IE, and it's certainly closed source.

Now as for OGL and Gygax, well I tend to like the OGL. I enjoy the variety of stuff available due to it. I also don't see why people end up with such a beef about the large amount of stuff coming out for D20. Truthfully, the mechanics of a game really don't matter all that much (as in the core mechanics of D20 vs. DC) when you are flexible about it. Looking at the contrast between Mutants and Masterminds and D20 Call of Cthulu, could anyone really make an argument that D20 isn't flexible?

Calling him a dinosaur, however, does go a bit over the line. He was a pioneer and created a hobby which I am devoted to. I may not agree with him on this issue, but there's no need to disparage his opinion.

buzzard

 

[MerakSpielman]

If you want your comments read by Mr Gygax himself, then please leave your discussion comments there.

Not to burst your bubble, but Mr Gygax has been known to browse and post around here as well, and I'm reasonably certain that, if he has not seen this thread already, he will have read it within a day or two.

But there's nothin' wrong with pimping your own web site. It's a real chore trying to attract visitors, and here we go chatting about your scoop on a different board.

We're so inconsiderate.

 

[Piratecat]

Greetings all!

Although we do not have any problems with people discussing articles that we post on our site on other forums, I would like to ask that you refrain from copying and pasting entire articles without prior permission. Feel free to link to them and copy and paste quotes, but not the entire article.

Our apologies, Kosala. That's certainly reasonable, and we'll enforce this from now on. Since the subject is already under discussion, may we please have permission to leave the article as currently quoted? If not, I'll go back and edit the original post.

 

[jeffh]

From the interview, one can see that Gary is clearly against OGL, and unwilling to even entertain any thoughts as to how he could make it better.

If I recall, Gary was in charge back in the Judges Guild days, thus it was HE that sued the pants off of anyone making products for D&D that wasn't TSR.

Janx

Yeah, whatever. Maybe if by "sued the pants off of" you mean "explicitly endorsed right in the first edition DMG".

Next time you're tempted to slag someone in public, I recommend you do a little basic fact-checking first.

 

[Kosala]

Our apologies, Kosala. That's certainly reasonable, and we'll enforce this from now on. Since the subject is already under discussion, may we please have permission to leave the article as currently quoted? If not, I'll go back and edit the original post.

No problem at all. You are welcome to keep this thread intact as it is.

 

[ddougan]

I completely disagree with Gary's views on the OGL.

I personally think its been a breath of fresh air to the gaming industry. It may not have been all things to everyone, but it has certainly rediscovered my love for DnD. I've also started 2 groups of completely new players (playing one night a week with each group).

Before DnD3e, I found AD&D2e to be a bit of a mess. I thought they failed to clean up the 2nd edition rules over the 1st. And I thought the first was itself just a collection of hacks over DnD. (No flames if you disagree - these are just my opinions). Suddenly 3e brough a proper task system to the game. The mechanics where clean - D20 is a damn well-design and rather elegant game system. And Gary's Dangerous Journeys was rather ugly in my eyes too (I have nothing against him - I am glad he created the hobby, but I don't particularly think his biggest skill is game design!).

Before DnD3e, my favourite system was GDW's HouseSystem - playing Traveller and Twilight 2000. Sadly, both of these games are now pretty much dead (the reprints are just that - I don't think the system is being taken anywhere - though I am glad to purchase new copies of the books, and I am hopeful that the TNE sourcebook will bring the Traveller historyline back on track - for me, going back to pre-1000 just isn't advancing Traveller). GDW were trying to implement a common system (just as WW was) long before WOTC - what WOTC did that succeeded those efforts was the OGL.

WOTC have benefitted greatly from my purchases. I've bought 3 copies of 3e PHB, DMG, MM, plus virtually all the WOTC blue and brown hardback books (save Savage Species which really doesn't interest me). I've also picked up the complete core rules for 3.5. And I've got most of the new FR product in print. That's a testimony to the quality of their products.

OGL publishers have benefitted greatly from my purchases too. I've got every single item in the Spycraft, B5, Warcraft, Midnight and Everquest ranges. Plus a host of source books that WOTC simply hasn't released themselves, but which thanks to OGL can fit right into my campaign without any effort to integrate - aerial guides, naval guides, books on mass combat etc.

I've made a big investment in D20 products, and being able to take a dozen new players and play fantasy, modern and sci-fi games without requiring them to learn a new ruleset has justified that investment.

I'm not saying the rules are perfect for all these genres - which is why I have house rules. But again, the elegant nature of the D20 system means I can cleanly add house rules and variants without having my players learn a new ruleset for each genre. Something which I also believe Gary isn't too fond of

As someone else said, he was asked his opinion and gave it ... I just don't think it should be treated as gospel any more than my own or someone elses on the boards...

 

[rgard]

While I have great respect for Mr. Gygax, I disagree with some of his points. Clearly, he's a big mavin of creative control, which is only understandable as he was instrumental in ushering in a new form of entertainment.

However...



That's a pretty big "All" at the start of the quote. And the ability for DMs to develop and reprint parts of the SRD is phenominal in the era of the internet.

Also, if you look at RPGs in the 80s, a lot of them were essentially D&D compliant anyway. Oh, sure. "Will" might have replaced "Wisdom" and "Charm" would be used instead of "Charisma". You'd have different classes and die-rolling techniques. But converting a lot of those games to D&D wasn't all that hard. Even skill-baesd games like Runequest used familiar attributes. The OGL brings that creative spirit under one roof.

The OGL does indeed do nothing to bring new players into the game. But neither did the non-existance of an OGL (if that makes any sense). Furthermore, the OGL makes it more likely that games will use the same mechanics to bring down the learning curve (although a supported line of D&D-"lite" products is desperatly needed).

But again, I can certainly see why he'd walk if someone told him they wanted to give his brainchild away for free and let other people make money off it.

I disagree on OGL doing nothing to bring new players into the game. Here's an example:

My brother never was a D&D player except for one adventure I DM'd and his half-orc (named Tars Tarkas) was eaten by a gelatinous cube. My brother is a huge ERB fan. When I told him that there was a company designing a D20 Barsoom (ERB's John Carter on Mars) game, by brother was sufficiently psyched to learn D20 D&D and start playing in anticipation...that and Sean Reynold's Barsoom conversions I showed him.

He is a convert to not just D20/OGL but to RPGs in general now. All that based on a game being designed based on ERB's John Carter stories...and the game hasn't even seen the light of day yet.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Ottergame]

I've never really liked Gary's oppinions much, he's always stuck me as a raving egotist and very old fashioned.

For one thing, the TSR brand, even when Gygax controlled it, was never a seal of quality, and TSR released more than its fair share of stinkers, including stuff he wrote himself.

Gary has always had a "Less is more" mentality. He was against the formation of the AD&D line of books and spearheaded the Basic line, because he didn't like how the AD&D rules provided rules for a larger variety of situations. He's always thought that the GM should make most of the rules up as they went along, and that having printed rules took away creativity and power from the DM.

He also went after smaller companies with lawsuits who produced D&D compatable material, though TSR did this to a much large extint after he had left the company.

After reading a lot of posts and material from and about Gary, I think he figures the only good RPG rules are the ones he writes himself. He was against the 3rd edition of D&D, and against the OGL, because it further dilutes the material he wrote for D&D.

 

[rgard]

I've never really liked Gary's oppinions much, he's always stuck me as a raving egotist and very old fashioned.

For one thing, the TSR brand, even when Gygax controlled it, was never a seal of quality, and TSR released more than its fair share of stinkers, including stuff he wrote himself.

Gary has always had a "Less is more" mentality. He was against the formation of the AD&D line of books and spearheaded the Basic line, because he didn't like how the AD&D rules provided rules for a larger variety of situations. He's always thought that the GM should make most of the rules up as they went along, and that having printed rules took away creativity and power from the DM.

He also went after smaller companies with lawsuits who produced D&D compatable material, though TSR did this to a much large extint after he had left the company.

After reading a lot of posts and material from and about Gary, I think he figures the only good RPG rules are the ones he writes himself. He was against the 3rd edition of D&D, and against the OGL, because it further dilutes the material he wrote for D&D.

What did he write for GDW that got crushed by TSR in a lawsuit? I think it was Dangerous Journeys or something like that. Being the RPG junkie I was (am) I think I did buy his core rule books for that. Too many weird spellings and unpronounceable words for even me.

 

[rgard]

I completely disagree with Gary's views on the OGL.

I personally think its been a breath of fresh air to the gaming industry. It may not have been all things to everyone, but it has certainly rediscovered my love for DnD. I've also started 2 groups of completely new players (playing one night a week with each group).

Before DnD3e, I found AD&D2e to be a bit of a mess. I thought they failed to clean up the 2nd edition rules over the 1st. And I thought the first was itself just a collection of hacks over DnD. (No flames if you disagree - these are just my opinions). Suddenly 3e brough a proper task system to the game. The mechanics where clean - D20 is a damn well-design and rather elegant game system. And Gary's Dangerous Journeys was rather ugly in my eyes too (I have nothing against him - I am glad he created the hobby, but I don't particularly think his biggest skill is game design!).

Before DnD3e, my favourite system was GDW's HouseSystem - playing Traveller and Twilight 2000. Sadly, both of these games are now pretty much dead (the reprints are just that - I don't think the system is being taken anywhere - though I am glad to purchase new copies of the books, and I am hopeful that the TNE sourcebook will bring the Traveller historyline back on track - for me, going back to pre-1000 just isn't advancing Traveller). GDW were trying to implement a common system (just as WW was) long before WOTC - what WOTC did that succeeded those efforts was the OGL.

WOTC have benefitted greatly from my purchases. I've bought 3 copies of 3e PHB, DMG, MM, plus virtually all the WOTC blue and brown hardback books (save Savage Species which really doesn't interest me). I've also picked up the complete core rules for 3.5. And I've got most of the new FR product in print. That's a testimony to the quality of their products.

OGL publishers have benefitted greatly from my purchases too. I've got every single item in the Spycraft, B5, Warcraft, Midnight and Everquest ranges. Plus a host of source books that WOTC simply hasn't released themselves, but which thanks to OGL can fit right into my campaign without any effort to integrate - aerial guides, naval guides, books on mass combat etc.

I've made a big investment in D20 products, and being able to take a dozen new players and play fantasy, modern and sci-fi games without requiring them to learn a new ruleset has justified that investment.

I'm not saying the rules are perfect for all these genres - which is why I have house rules. But again, the elegant nature of the D20 system means I can cleanly add house rules and variants without having my players learn a new ruleset for each genre. Something which I also believe Gary isn't too fond of

As someone else said, he was asked his opinion and gave it ... I just don't think it should be treated as gospel any more than my own or someone elses on the boards...

Agreed with all the above.

One other benefit I see to OGL is the ownership aspect. We can all write and sell or give away OGL products. If D&D wasn't OGL, most of us wouldn't have a snow ball's chance of getting a D&D related product published. How many total people submitted material to TSR, the Dragon or Dungeon over the years got published vs. the total number who submitted material? I'll bet $ to doughnuts it's a pretty small ratio.

Thanks,
Rich