D&D (2024) Greyhawk Confirmed. Tell Me Why.

[Yaarel]

I was referring to 4e, since we were talking about 4e,

Ah.

and "eladrin" effectively don't exist in it (the DMG/MPMM option is effectively forgotten these days).

I miss the 4e Eladrin. The 5e Eladrin is something different.

The 4e Eladrin is a Fey urban magical civilization, something like a Potteresque Wizard World, but with majestic architecture, supertowers and perhaps floating cities. The 5e Eladrin are moreso a Fey wilderness culture, resonating seasonal flavors.

4e Eladrin are an Elf culture that values Charisma and Intelligence, in all its facets from Bard to court politics to Wizard experiments.

I hope the 5e version of Grey Elf continues this Fey urban magical civilization culture. Then the Faerie among them are the 5e Eladrin.

Where no Feywild-origin species got "cantrips" of any kind, eladrin could teleport, elves could reroll-and-keep attack rolls once per encounter, shadar-kai could become insubstantial shadows, and drow could pull an octopus trick and make a cloud of impenetrable darkness (to everyone but the drow who made it) for a full round.

In 5e Xanathars, there are feats for Fey Step, Elven accuracy, and so on. Additionally, the innate spells allow for Misty Step, True Strike (hopefully a version that isnt worthless), Guidance, Longstrider or Expeditious Retreat, and so on. A few new spells seem necessary. I prefer Darkvision itself is cantrip, then the slot 2 spell improves to grant sight in any circumstance including in magical darkness and to every member of the party. Similarly, Waterbreathing be a cantrip, perhaps called Gills, while the slot 3 spell somehow beef up to become worth a slot 3 spell.

When you actually do make them different, so they don't use the same baseline stats (as was the case for every edition before 5e that recognized any difference at all), so they don't all invoke exactly the same magic in exactly the same ways...

Every Elf should use the same species stats now. Abilities have nothing to do with species stats. So the days when a player must be a "Grey" Elf for an Intelligence boost are over.

A single Elf species stats can be for characters with +2 Intelligence Score (Grey) or +2 Strength Score (Grugach).

Then a player picks spells that express an individual character concept. A DM picks spells that express the trending culture concept. Most Drow culture members do pick the Dancing Lights cantrip because its dim light grants full color.

Meanwhile, to grant one culture a cantrip swap and an other culture a 120-foot Darkvision and an other culture a +5 Speed, is insufficient to justify a separate species, and isnt even worth mentioning in first place. Moreover, these can be Elven background feats.

All Elves should use the same stats of one single flexible species.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

My man, no one is hating on Greyhawk

I did say I thought it was garbage.

This was when I got the folio World of Greyhawk back in the early 80s. It was a real disappointment. But at least it inspired me to create my own homebrew setting, on the basis that I could easily do better.

 

[pemerton]

I am so tired of "quirky and unique" being the top priority for some very many players.

Because plain and same-y is better? I honestly don't get this either.

I don't even really care about Greyhawk specifically, although I always want more settings on the Guild. I just find the issue interesting to talk about.

And I get this even less. I'm a hardcore GH player. As I posted already, I own just about every GH setting product (I don't recall if I have the shorter book that accompanied publication of the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer). I've GM hundreds, probably thousands, of hours of GH games, using a variety of systems: AD&D, Rolemaster, Burning Wheel, and Torchbearer 2e.

And after lecturing me (along with others) about my disrespect for the setting, it turns out you don't actually care about it! WTF is that about? Who gave you authority to police other people's engagements with published RPG settings?

 

[pemerton]

it seems to be a hostile and offensive idea to want to preserve any of the flavor of GH that makes it an interesting and unique setting.

In your view, what makes GH interesting and unique. (I gave my answer upthread.)

 

[pemerton]

The Blue Goblins are on the Shattered Obelisk.

Is this a GH thing I'm not recognising?

 

[pemerton]

What I am saying is that a player will make a Dragonborn in Greyhawk and have characters that are not tied and have bonds to the setting. And there are drawbacks to that.

Why can't their Dragonborn be the progeny of a GH dragon and a human lover? That sounds pretty tied to the setting to me!

 

[Yaarel]

I strongly prefer a single flexible Elf species, rather than opening the door to a 100+ separate elven species.

Even 5e has already been excessively multiplying the number of Elf species: Shadar-Kai, Sea Elf, Mark of Shadow, Astral Elf, Eladrin, Pallid Elf, various kinds of MTG Elves, and Grugach and if I recall correctly Avariel also have mention. This is too much too much.

There can be and must be a single simple Elf species, that lets the player pick the spells.

 

[pemerton]

Oh, I can tell you why it still survives to this day - it was Gary Gygax’s. That mystique alone assured people would be enamored with it.

Do I think it’s worthless? I think it’s under-developed. It’s got a great map. It’s got a lot of places with silly names. It’s got a lot of very famous NPCs who are complete tabula rasas in terms of personality. I think if you want the barest starting point of a campaign setting with no one having preconceived notions of what’s there - Greyhawk is perfect. No one’s gonna ask you about Elminster or Drizzt. No ones gonna question a DM based on a contradictory point in a novel.

I think what you say is true - except for "under-developed"; I think it's developed to basically the right degree.

But I think you undersell a bit. What GH has, that you don't mention, is tropes: it has ancient empires, demon-ruled kingdoms, thief-ruled cities, Dwarven fastnesses in the mountains, Elven kingdoms, pirates, etc - and all in the middle of the map! It supports classic FRPGing right out of the box: I mean, all you have to do is look at the map, read a sentence or two entry on each of the things there (the Free City of GH, the Bright Desert, the Lake of Unknown Depths, Celene and its Queen and its Prince Melf Brightblade, etc, etc) and then you're good to go!

 

[Staffan]

Tell me more of these psychic goblins. I know goblins, nilbogs, kobolds, svarts (White Dwarf), xvarts (Fiend Folio), hobgoblins and norkers. But I don't think I know these psychic goblins.

Are they from a GH product?

They're from the 3.5e Expanded Psionics Handbook (not sure if they were in the 3.0 Psionics Handbook before it – I think so but can't be hedgehogged to check). Basically they're goblin mutants with blue-tinged skin and a predeliction for psionics.

 

[pemerton]

They're from the 3.5e Expanded Psionics Handbook (not sure if they were in the 3.0 Psionics Handbook before it – I think so but can't be hedgehogged to check). Basically they're goblin mutants with blue-tinged skin and a predeliction for psionics.

So do they have anything to do with Greyhawk? Someone upthread compared them to Thought Eaters. (Which, being from the AD&D MM, presumably are canonical to GH in some sense.)