Greatest. Monster Book. Ever.

[ColonelHardisson]

*grimaces a bit*

Sorry, gents, involuntary reaction there. When I hear someone asking a crunchy question about a product like "how does this monster book avoid the common habit of its ilk by simply repeating minor variants on the same roles that are already by filled by creatures in a dozen monster books that proceeded them?", and they get a somewhat vague response like "by being so darn cool!", I just have to grimace a little. Sometimes people get excited over a book's "flavour" and give it rave reviews without scratching beneath the surface.

Case in point: my first and only purchase to date in the Privateer Press line was The Longest Night. It soon wound up on my pile unusable gaming material. I found it to be a highly-scripted railroad of an adventure that violated many of the basic tenets that they teach in "DMing 101". Then about a month later another DM actually whipped it out one night and start running it, thinking it was a pretty cool read. Sure enough, the story that looked so friggin' cool on paper made the players alternatively bored and infuriated. Monte Cook's review covers some of TLN’s weak aspects, although his comments are really just the tip of the lameberg.

The really disappointing thing about TLN is that I purchased it based on the landslide of 5-star rave reviews here at ENWorld. IMO, it seems like everyone got so fixated on praising the "storyteller" elements--creepy ambience and deep character motivations--that they ignored some pretty obvious design flaws, namely that the book places little value on both game mechanics and the importance of player choices. There are some pretty ready warning signs too, such as a sidebar where the author shares his secret to good DM-ing, which boils down to something like this: "Events should always proceed as planned. It is the true Art of the DM to trick players into thinking that their foresight and ingenuity can influence the outcome of an encounter, while tactfully and subtly quashing any and all attempts to disrupt the flow of your story".

Well, fool me once, shame on PP....

Now once again I'm reading a whole lotta gushing posts about a Privateer Press book that contain relatively few specific details. Anyone care to go a little beyond adding to the number of times the word "cool" has been used?

Why does the book inspire awe? What exactly about the monsters are original? Up to this point here are the details I've been able to gather about the Monsternomicon's major strengths:

1) Idea-mining: Each monster is given a lot of individual attention as to how they can be inserted.

2) Superlative artwork

3) Guns and other steampunk elements that provide a new twist.

So far that sounds fairly cool. What else?

Since you decided to single me out for ridicule, I guess I'll respond.

First, check the first post in this thread. I didn't see any question in it that even remotely resembles the question you say was posed. All I saw was a post saying, in essence, "I thought this was cool, anyone else?" I replied in kind - yep, it's cool alright.

Second, you make the HUGE assumption that I haven't "scratch[ed] beneath the surface" - sorry, I have. I have all the IK stuff produced so far. By your own admission, you have experience with only one of those books. Perhaps the failure to look deeper into the product line is yours, not mine.

Third, your beef is with how the adventure you played is written. That's subjective; I still think it's well done. As to specifics, you complain I didn't give any, then fail to provide any concerning why you disliked it beyond, and I paraphrase, "the plot is railroaded, and I disliked that." OK, then, I'll counter that with - "I think it's simply highly structured, and I liked it."

Fourth, you mention rules problems. OK. Since you were critical of my lack of specifics, name them. I didn't see any more than any other given d20 product I've read - and I've read a helluva lot - and a lot less than quite a few.

 

[El_Gringo]

A little off the topic, but does anyone know of a good online retailer where I can score a copy? The only place I've been able to find it is on amazon and they're charging full retail for it. Thanks all.

 

[Olive]

well, I was never into the idea of steampunk, and then i read perido street station, so now i AM into the idea of steam punk. Its the IK stuff a playable campaign yet? what have they put out? players or DMs guides?

 

[darkbard]

some comments on various topics:

sure, there are some design flaws in TLN. it was one of the first 3e adventures to hit the market and this does become evident at times [lack of stats for a major npc and magic item, several mistakes in rules resolution design [lack of understanding DCs and opposed rolls, etc]. however, with each product they've produced, the privateer press team has made less and less rules errors. and these errors are more than overshadowed by the compelling nature of the setting [alternate races, variations on the core classes, intriguing new rules subsets [firearms, steam technology, lack of resurrection magic, etc.], a well-defined story arc for the adventure trilogy [is it railroading? sure, maybe at times. but, like ColonelHardisson, i prefer to look at this as well-structured.] and an overall focus on a specific flavor over generic compatability.

is the IK setting a playable campaign yet? it most certainly is with the recent release of the character primer. sure, the campaign guide hasn't come out yet [though they keep saying it will be soon], so the DM doesn't have any more info than the players which can be a hassle at times. but i've gotten my campaing under way without it and all is going smoothly and with a real sense of setting. being an active participant in the iron kingdoms yahoo discussion list doesn't hurt in this regard either.

olive, i too read perdido street station. though the iron kingdoms setting has a very different feel from mieville's world, you can be sure i've incorporated plenty of ideas from the novel into the game setting.

 

[johnsemlak]

A little off the topic, but does anyone know of a good online retailer where I can score a copy? The only place I've been able to find it is on amazon and they're charging full retail for it. Thanks all.

Check out FRPGames They offer it for 22.95 or so, but that doesn't include shipping.

Also, I wouldn't be a good community supporter if I didn't plug the EN World RPG store.

One question I have about Monsternomicon, how specific is it to the Iron Kingdoms setting?

 

[Felon]

Since you decided to single me out for ridicule, I guess I'll respond.

You weren't being singled-out for anything, nobody was being ridiculed, and I'm not sure where you see anything inflammatory directed to any individual in the entirety of that post. Your comment made me grimace, but I wasn't grimacing at you specifically, if that's what you're opting to be offended by. I provided an anecdotal reference on where my reaction came from.

First, check the first post in this thread. I didn't see any question in it that even remotely resembles the question you say was posed. All I saw was a post saying, in essence, "I thought this was cool, anyone else?" I replied in kind - yep, it's cool alright.

Again, not about you lol. I quoted that single sentence of yours because it sparked the initial desire to post. From then on I was talking to everyone who shares the general sentiment about the Monsternomicon's "coolness", figuring that I was not the only who might benefit from some specific insights. I didn't think it important or pragmatic to quote text from every single person's post past, present, and future who might have something to say about the book. Looking back to clarify, it was Dr. Harry's question and Barsoomcore's answer that I paraphrased.

Second, you make the HUGE assumption that I haven't "scratch[ed] beneath the surface" - sorry, I have. I have all the IK stuff produced so far.

I assumed nothing about you because--and I'm beginning to think that I can't stress this strongly enough--I wasn't actually talking to you personally. I cannot fathom how you could interpret "Sometimes people..." to be a direct reference to yourself.

Third, your beef is with how the adventure you played is written. That's subjective; I still think it's well done. As to specifics, you complain I didn't give any, then fail to provide any concerning why you disliked it beyond, and I paraphrase, "the plot is railroaded, and I disliked that."

I actually had quite a bit more about why TLN was a disappointment, until I decided that people would concentrate on the axe-grinding rather than my request for additional information about the Monsternomicon (which pretty much sums up what happened here). So I tried to trim down my TLN comments enough to fully explain the anecdote and leave it at that and move on. People don't appreciate thread-hijacking.

I don't know what provoked such a defensive reaction, but if clarification is what was required, then there you have it. We good?

SO, back to the Monsternomicon...please, share your insights with equal exhuberence.

 

[Carnifex]

Want to knw what's so great? Well thought-out monsters that have a good place in the game world. Size comparison with a normal human (a little pic above the stats of a monster shows you). Great artwork. A section telling you Common, Uncommon and Rare (and maybe anotehr category, can't ermember right now) information on a beast. Steampunk elements. Very cool, unique dragons - not just rehashes of old ones with a different skin colour and an extra special ability as seems to be a more popular method of making a new dragon speices. Cool rules for the summoning of Infernals. A section on each monster detailing what kind of treasure you can get from it - ie that body parts are worth money to alchemists, and suchlike. Adventure hooks. Neat takes on old concepts like the Ogrun and Gobbers.

That's just what I can remember, not having the book on hand in which case I could add more.

BTW, those of you interested in steampunk, Perdido Street Station style, I'm currently writing Steam & Steel: A Guide to Fantasy Steamworks. It'll be published in pdf format from Horade (or maybe another publishers since the Horade head honchos seem to have temporarily disappeared) and Perdido was one of my sources of inspiration for it.

 

[DonAdam]

I will admit that the IK folks sometimes have a problem grasping basic rules concepts.

Case in point: In the character primer, they have "serated" weapons that you can pay a couple extra hundred goldpieces for that have an 18-20 threat range, like a "serated greatsword."

That desperately needs to be errata'd to be an exotic weapon.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

You weren't being singled-out for anything, nobody was being ridiculed, and I'm not sure where you see anything inflammatory directed to any individual in the entirety of that post. Your comment made me grimace, but I wasn't grimacing at you specifically, if that's what you're opting to be offended by. I provided an anecdotal reference on where my reaction came from.

Again, not about you lol. I quoted that single sentence of yours because it sparked the initial desire to post. From then on I was talking to everyone who shares the general sentiment about the Monsternomicon's "coolness", figuring that I was not the only who might benefit from some specific insights. I didn't think it important or pragmatic to quote text from every single person's post past, present, and future who might have something to say about the book. Looking back to clarify, it was Dr. Harry's question and Barsoomcore's answer that I paraphrased.

I assumed nothing about you because--and I'm beginning to think that I can't stress this strongly enough--I wasn't actually talking to you personally. I cannot fathom how you could interpret "Sometimes people..." to be a direct reference to yourself.

I actually had quite a bit more about why TLN was a disappointment, until I decided that people would concentrate on the axe-grinding rather than my request for additional information about the Monsternomicon (which pretty much sums up what happened here). So I tried to trim down my TLN comments enough to fully explain the anecdote and leave it at that and move on. People don't appreciate thread-hijacking.

I don't know what provoked such a defensive reaction, but if clarification is what was required, then there you have it. We good?

SO, back to the Monsternomicon...please, share your insights with equal exhuberence.

You're being disingenuous. If you quote someone directly, then you are directly responding to that person. If you don't want that person to feel as if he or she is being singled out or directly responded to, then don't quote them. It's not like, say, DonAdam will think I'm also addressing him directly by my quoting of your post.

 

[haiiro]

The biggest hurdle I see new critter books as having to overcome has to do with "what slots are ledt to fill?" Does any campaign need 37 new orc-like humanoids, or 42 more "colors" of dragons, etc?

My FLGS does not have the Monsternomicon; how does this book dodge this bullet?

Some of what I like about the Monsternomicon has been covered already, but not all of it. Here's a few things that make it my favorite monster book overall:

- Layout: 2 pages (or more) per monster, and generally 2 pictures for each monster as well -- the 2 pages aspect is a biggie.
- The basics are done well (stats and so forth).
- Hooks and Legends & Lore sections for every entry -- this is an amazingly good idea. Whether or not you've got a bard in the party, the L&L section is one of the best creature book ideas so far.
- Style: consistent (and consistently very good) artwork, quiet but evocative borders and backgrounds, good flavor text, etc.
- Cool creatures. Hard to quantify, but you know it when you see it -- even in a non-steampunk game, there are a ton of great monsters in here.
- Details -- it's clear that a lot of work went into getting all of the details right, and it shows in the final package. This is what every monster book should use as its foundation.

I love monster books, and although there are a lot of good ones out there, my second favorite at the moment is the bestiary section of Mindscapes. Every single creature in there oozes style, the writing is great, nearly all of the artwork is phenomenal (you can't go wrong with Toren Atkinson) and every entry fills my head with crafty ideas about how to use the creatures. The only problem with it is that it's too small.

I don't mind how slowly Privateer brings things out when they do work like the Monsternomicon -- but I can't wait for Volume Two.