Good form and bad PCs

[Oryan77]

With all the advice being given here, and all of the same kind of advice I've seen given in past threads like this, has anyone ever had a positive outcome after using advice like this when it came to dealing with a problem player?

I have tried everything in the book and not a single one of those players is still with our group today. I've yet to see things work out in our group and I'm just wondering if threads like this actually help anyone, or if we should just cut to the chase and tell concerned DMs & players to stop gaming together. I will put my foot in my mouth if this advice actually works. I just wish I could get it to work for me.

We just had yet again another "newer" player leave the game recently. We got along, he was a nice guy, and I hold no grudge. But he broke my "no powergaming" rule despite how many times I drilled it into his head that I'm not ok with powergaming. He had a lot of other gamer issues and it was bothering other players. So I discussed it with the other guys and we concluded that he would no longer be invited back once we got a replacement player. Unfortunately, in his last game deliberately broke another rule (all Outsider Alter Self choices must be approved first) and surprised me with his overpowered choice during the heat of battle once things turned bad for the PCs. When I called him out on it and reminded him for the umpteenth time that I won't tolerate powergaming, he blew up at me and said he already decided that would be his last game. I did let him know that we already discussed kicking him out, so it works out for everyone. But I did remind him that he didn't really do anything wrong, we just have different gaming styles. Although, he did do something wrong by breaking my no powergaming rules over and over, but oh well. I was trying to calm the situation down and end it peacefully.

I had been trying to use all the similar advice here over time with this player. I thought we could actually work it out. But that wasn't so.

I did experience something new with him. This was the first time I'd seen a player brand new to D&D use the 3.5 Conjuration Wizard optimization forums to build an exact replica of those builds right down to spell choices, alternate class features, feats, PrC, and a wish list for magic items, and then insist that he wasn't referring to these threads to get his build. I couldn't call him a liar every time he leveled and made those choices. But even optimizers I know that have played D&D for years would have deviated slightly with a choice here and there. Even the guys choice of spells were ones that are known to be better than choosing Magic Missile or Fireball, and you have to actually play test that to figure that out (or read the optimization threads). He didn't come off as the lying type, so I gave him the benefit of the doubt up until the last time he leveled up.

 

[Greg K]

I have tried everything in the book and not a single one of those players is still with our group today. I've yet to see things work out in our group and I'm just wondering if threads like this actually help anyone, or if we should just cut to the chase and tell concerned DMs & players to stop gaming together. I will put my foot in my mouth if this advice actually works. I just wish I could get it to work for me.

You say it as if it is a bad thing. I have long been an advocate that not everyone should be playing together (if they want to avoid grief). My goal is to weed out incompatible players before characters are ever created. I begin by talking with potential players.. If that does not work, there is
1) character discussion (in addition to getting campaign compatible characters, it is another chance to weed out players)
2) character approval (a chance to look over characters, make some suggestions and, with new players, catch incompatible players)
3) Talk with once (assuming they were not a problem in the above steps)
4) Boot from the game (assuming they made it this far)

To date, no problem players have made it past 2 above.
One of my current players (whom I thought would be a problem) tried testing me by providing a character that I denied for a) not being what we agreed upon; and b) using banned sources.
Upon my denial, he thanked me for sticking to my guns and said that I immediately earned his respect by doing so. As he handed me his real sheet, he told me that he had, deliberately, caused problems in two other games, because the DMs refused to either set or enforce their limits (one of those DMs I learned was another player joining my campaign at the same time). The guy has never been a problem in my game, but remains a problem in the campaign run by his other DM whom is in my group.

 

[Grogg of the North]

[MENTION=5038]Greg K[/MENTION]

As my old DM used to say, "Life is too short to game with bad groups."

 

[Starfox]

Some players find character builds to be the point of the game, a mini-game much like combat, skill challenges, etc. This is not a problem if they realize this is what they're doing - that characters built this way are not generally suitable for play. Sadly 3E and later editions (including 4E and Pathfinder) have enough prerequisite chains and other things forcing you to make a planned build that this game style is legitimized.

The ideal solution is to give such players congratulations on having made a cool new build and explored new cracks in the system, then ask them to do a normal character for actual play. If the player realizes what he's doing, this can be doable. If the player thinks he's just smart or that everyone else are idiots, then it becomes a problem.

Around here, most players are pretty good optimizers, but also realize that this kind of game play can be destructive. This avoids most of the problem - optimization is only a problem if it leads to imbalance between the players - the GM can always hand out less xp and loot if the balance between PCs and NPCs becomes problematic.