Games Workshop notes that space fascism would be bad

[Ruin Explorer]

No thanks. Literally misses the whole point of the setting.

I dont want 40K to change 1 tiny bit, ever.

This is unintentionally hilarious.

If you compare Rogue Trader-era and even 2nd edition-era 40K to even 3rd edition-era 40K, let alone 4th/5th/6th, there's massive change.

And the death of any hope is part of that. In Rogue Trade and 2E, whilst there is plenty of grimdarkness (particularly in later 2E), there's often a humorous tone to affairs, and people often do work together, even when nominally enemies or disallowed from doing so. It was a lot closer to the WHFB-type scenario, where potentially anyone could fight anyone, but the Eldar fighting alongside Space Marines wasn't particularly surprising (for example), and the whole "hatred" angle wasn't as played-up.

3E and later ones (until recently, where it seems to have reversed again) basically murdered any humour, lightness or hope in the 40K setting. They even largely murdered the idea of people cooperating against a greater foe (though it does still happen in lore, the fraught-ness is massively played-up).

So if you don't want 40K to "change 1 tiny bit ever", what 40K are you talking about? The 40K of Rogue Trader/2E? The po-faced 40K of 3-6E? The over-the-top-epic 40K which lets the Empire off a bit easy of the post-Primaris era? Change has happened before and thinking it hasn't just means your perspective is off.

As we've discussed on this message board in regards to D&D, after so many decades, the audience has changed. They're made up of a more diverse population with different values and experiences from the audience in the 80s and 90s. To remain relevant, the game must change.

Change is arguably necessary but I don't think the change you're suggesting is happening matches that goal at all.

This seems unlikely. With GW gaining a more mainstream audience, they'll continue to dial back the evils of the Imperium by ushering in the promise of a new golden age. That's kind of what primaris marines are all about.

Yeah there is some sign of this, but the idea that this appeals to a "more diverse population with different values" is bizarre. Primaris Marines' core demographic is people who love the idea that some humans are "better" than other ones. Who didn't think Space Marines were "extreme" enough. Who think the Space Nazis of the Imperium should be the "good guys".

I'd say what you're describing is prima facie evidence that, if this is intended, GW is absolutely screwing up any move to serve a "more diverse audience with different value". Primaris Marines being what they are and the Empire being good guys are absolutely spot-on for the sort of players who turn up to a game convention in Nazi (or Confederate) uniforms. They're totally wrong for a broader audience.

If GW want to appeal to a broader audience, they need to play up their more diverse factions and the complexity of the setting, and a "Golden Age" can't come from Space Nazis.

I actually don't think the Primaris Marines stuff had anything at all to do with trying to reach a larger audience though. I think it's kind of the opposite - Space Marines were and remain the most popular faction to play as (despite there being like 3 of them, setting-wise - but a lot of the main armies are super-rare, setting-wise). However, loads of people had bought their Space Marine armies and didn't need a new one. So GW made their Space Marines into 2nd-rate marines, who were short and dumb-looking compared to these Primaris dudes, but absolutely stuck with the core Space Marine aesthetic, and thus millions of people re-bought and continue to effectively re-buy large section (or even all of!) their Space Marine armies. The doubling-down on what was successful didn't draw new people in or speak to a more diverse audience. It just made $$$. The "New Golden Age" thing wasn't really very thought-through. So best case is GW done messed up. Worst case, they want to double-down on the Imperium being the good guys despite carefully explaining they're the baddies (I tend to think not though - I think this was a business decision which is slightly unfortunate).

If GW do attempt to target a broader market, what I expect to see is some kind of "Rebel Marines" thing, where those Marines haven't turned to Chaos, but have turned away from the Imperium and its many evils, and they'd probably be Primaris Marines, and let people spend lots of money on Marines whilst saying "We're not the baddies!". There have been hints of this idea from time to time through all the history of 40K (Rogue Trader to present), but when you see that, that's when you know they're targeting a wider audience for real. From this statement I don't see that happening any time soon. But I do think we'll probably see it in the next couple of decades sometime. And yes the heads of some fans will explode.

 

[Mongoose_Matt]

Eh? Were they called Imperial Army prior to 1989?

RTB7 Imperial Guard

They were indeed! Before that plastic set, when they were an all metal range (and rode Jet Bikes and could take Rhinos!), they were listed as the Imperial Army.

GW made a nod to this in the Horus Heresy, going back to Imperial Army.

All very interesting to note the changes to 40k over the years!

 

[Mannahnin]

They were indeed! Before that plastic set, when they were an all metal range (and rode Jet Bikes and could take Rhinos!), they were listed as the Imperial Army.

GW made a nod to this in the Horus Heresy, going back to Imperial Army.

All very interesting to note the changes to 40k over the years!

Ah yes, 1987 and 1988 is pretty old school.

RTO5/RT501/4010 Imperial Army / Imperial Guard

 

[S'mon]

Worst case, they want to double-down on the Imperium being the good guys despite carefully explaining they're the baddies

I think this cognitive dissonance is exactly what GW are going for.
If you can't hold two contradictory thoughts in your head at the same time you're not a very good Imperial citizen, are you?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

They were indeed! Before that plastic set, when they were an all metal range (and rode Jet Bikes and could take Rhinos!), they were listed as the Imperial Army.

GW made a nod to this in the Horus Heresy, going back to Imperial Army.

All very interesting to note the changes to 40k over the years!

Pretty sure Imperial Guard could take Rhinos well into 2nd edition 40K. They definitely could in Epic Scale.

 

[Scribe]

If you compare Rogue Trader-era and even 2nd edition-era 40K to even 3rd edition-era 40K, let alone 4th/5th/6th, there's massive change.

To be fair, I should have clarified that I believe 3rd, is what set the basic tone that has been quite consistent since.

RT/2nd is it's own thing.

 

[MGibster]

Yeah there is some sign of this, but the idea that this appeals to a "more diverse population with different values" is bizarre. Primaris Marines' core demographic is people who love the idea that some humans are "better" than other ones. Who didn't think Space Marines were "extreme" enough. Who think the Space Nazis of the Imperium should be the "good guys".

I don't believe that's true at all. I think the core demographic are people who think Space Marines look totally radical and tubular to the max. Kids still say tubular and radical to the max, right? I think the majority of people who get into the game first select the army they find aesthetically pleasing. I picked the Imperial Fists, Necrons, and Imperial Knights because I think they look sick as hell.

I'd say what you're describing is prima facie evidence that, if this is intended, GW is absolutely screwing up any move to serve a "more diverse audience with different value". Primaris Marines being what they are and the Empire being good guys are absolutely spot-on for the sort of players who turn up to a game convention in Nazi (or Confederate) uniforms. They're totally wrong for a broader audience.

Given the increased number of people who are into Warhammer either through computer games, fiction, or the table top miniatures games over the last two decades I'd say their strategy is working. GW has also worked to include more women and people of color by including them in the fiction, the artwork, and even as examples of miniatures in their ranges. (Though there are valid complaints that this has been done to slowly.) They've also toned down some of the decidedly non-kid friendly aspects of the setting by getting rid of (ignoring) previously published lore and ceasing production of certain models (Juan Diaz daemonettes being the best example).

I actually don't think the Primaris Marines stuff had anything at all to do with trying to reach a larger audience though. I think it's kind of the opposite - Space Marines were and remain the most popular faction to play as (despite there being like 3 of them, setting-wise - but a lot of the main armies are super-rare, setting-wise). However, loads of people had bought their Space Marine armies and didn't need a new one. So GW made their Space Marines into 2nd-rate marines, who were short and dumb-looking compared to these Primaris dudes, but absolutely stuck with the core Space Marine aesthetic, and thus millions of people re-bought and continue to effectively re-buy large section (or even all of!) their Space Marine armies.

Getting people to buy new models is part of it. But the Primaris Marines also represent something we hadn't seen in 40k for a long, long while. New technology. Well, recovered technology I guess. Not just with the Primaris Marines themselves but with some of their equipment and vehicles.

If GW do attempt to target a broader market, what I expect to see is some kind of "Rebel Marines" thing, where those Marines haven't turned to Chaos, but have turned away from the Imperium and its many evils, and they'd probably be Primaris Marines, and let people spend lots of money on Marines whilst saying "We're not the baddies!".

Okay, they have a broader market now than they did 20 years ago. I don't know how broad the market can get, but we'll see.

 

[S'mon]

GW has also worked to include more women and people of color by including them in the fiction, the artwork, and even as examples of miniatures in their ranges. (Though there are valid complaints that this has been done to slowly.) They've also toned down some of the decidedly non-kid friendly aspects of the setting by getting rid of (ignoring) previously published lore and ceasing production of certain models (Juan Diaz daemonettes being the best example).

This sounds like an Americanisation of the product, to appeal to American teenagers without offending their mothers. Breasts weren't traditionally a big deal in the UK - and DEFINITELY not in continental Europe. Ethnic diversity is probably more important in the US market too, though the UK & European mores have been Americanising, especially in recent decades with the Internet.

 

[MGibster]

This sounds like an Americanisation of the product, to appeal to American teenagers without offending their mothers. Breasts weren't traditionally a big deal in the UK - and DEFINITELY not in continental Europe. Ethnic diversity is probably more important in the US market too, though the UK & European mores have been Americanising, especially in recent decades with the Internet.

Oh, yeah. I think they got rid of the topless demons precisely to avoid offending parents who might otherwise purchase 40k for their teenage sons. (Yeah, sons. I don't think GW is working super hard to attract women and girls to the game.) Appealing to Americans is an example of trying to broaden your audience.

 

[Fenris-77]

I want my topless demons back.