Fireball vs. Wind Wall

[Lord Pendragon]

In any event, I still maintain it doesn't matter. A rules-based argument doesn't get so far as to ask the "miss chance/AoE" question, because wind wall is specific about what it affects. And a fireball pellet isn't one of those things.

This is where I disagree. The pellet from the fireball is, IMO, a normal missile. Thus, it suffers a 30% miss chance. That does, however, take us into murkier waters rules-wise, since the rules do not take into account the possibility that an AoE spell might be subject to a 30% miss chance. And I can understand why they don't. Fireball, and the fact that it produces a pellet, makes it unique as far as AoE's go, which usually simply target an Area and have done with it.

Were I the DM (which I'm not, in the scenario where this will come up for me, but for the further sake of this discussion), I might suggest the pellet veer 30% off-course, for instance. This could result in a fireball detonating too early (by hitting the ground before it gets to its intended destination), detonating above its target (and thus possibly having a smaller effective area), or detonating off to the right of left of its target, possibly hitting a portion of its intended targets, but not others.

Or another way to rule might be to simply apply the 30% to the negation effect. So that the fireball pellet has a 30% chance of being carried up and away harmlessly like an arrow or bolt, and a 70% chance of pushing through the Wind Wall without any deviation in its course.

 

[Three_Haligonians]

Good question! The fireball/water thing has always been a point of debate for our group.

If Wind Wall is able to push the fireball pellet away, then it means it's exerting more force on the pellet than the pellet is exerting on it (at least we think we have our physics right here). So it is, in effect, acting as a solid object would on the pellet. If you decide Wind Wall will affect the pellet, then we think it would detonate.

The question then becomes, does Wind Wall affect the pellet? You raised the intriguing question whether the pellet would detonate on the surface of water or at the bottom of the lake/whatever. The rules of underwater combat in the DMG say:

Spells or spell-like effects with the fire descripter are ineffective underwater unless the caster makes a spellcraft check (DC 20 + Spell level). If the check succeeds, the spell creates a bubble of steam instead of its usual fiery effect, but otherwise the spell works as described.

As long as the spellcraft check is made, the pellet should not detonate upon contact with water.

AND . . . just because we know someone's going to bring it up , the DMG also says:

The surface of a body of water blocks line of effect for any fire spell. If the caster has made a spellcraft check to make the firespell usable underwater, the surface still blocks the spell's line of effect. For example a fireball cast underwater cannot be targeted at creatures above the surface.

BUT!!! That rule is only for targeting a specific creature, or area. It doesn't mean (as far as we can tell) that striking the surface, from below or above, counts as striking an object.

More fuel for the fire (Aren't we clever . . . )

R and J from Three Haligonians

 

[Three_Haligonians]

Oh Oh!! And one more point! T just walked in and made this point:

If a wizard cast Delayed Blast Fireball, the bead can then be interacted with by anyone else who happens to be around. If, say, a monk picks up the bead he can throw it, using the rules of a grenade-like weapon. Hell, several rogues could play hacky-sack with it!

So, it would fall under "other ranged weapon" in the description of Wind Wall, and therefore be subject to the 30% miss chance.

What's the difference between a bead from a delayed blast fireball, and the bead from a plain, ol' regular fireball.

R, J, and now T, from Three Haligonians

 

[frankthedm]

Delayed Blast Fireball
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Duration: 5 rounds or less; see text
This spell functions like fireball, except that it is more powerful and can detonate up to 5 rounds after the spell is cast. The burst of flame deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 20d6).
The glowing bead created by delayed blast fireball can detonate immediately if you desire, or you can choose to delay the burst for as many as 5 rounds. You select the amount of delay upon completing the spell, and that time cannot change once it has been set unless someone touches the bead (see below). If you choose a delay, the glowing bead sits at its destination until it detonates. A creature can pick up and hurl the bead as a thrown weapon (range increment 10 feet). If a creature handles and moves the bead within 1 round of its detonation, there is a 25% chance that the bead detonates while being handled.

Fireball
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.
You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.
The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.
Material Component: A tiny ball of bat guano and sulfur.

Wind Wall
Evocation [Air]
Level: Air 2, Clr 3, Drd 3, Rgr 2, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: Wall up to 10 ft./level long and 5 ft./level high (S)
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
An invisible vertical curtain of wind appears. It is 2 feet thick and of considerable strength. It is a roaring blast sufficient to blow away any bird smaller than an eagle, or tear papers and similar materials from unsuspecting hands. (A Reflex save allows a creature to maintain its grasp on an object.) Tiny and Small flying creatures cannot pass through the barrier. Loose materials and cloth garments fly upward when caught in a wind wall. Arrows and bolts are deflected upward and miss, while any other normal ranged weapon passing through the wall has a 30% miss chance. (A giant-thrown boulder, a siege engine projectile, and other massive ranged weapons are not affected.) Gases, most gaseous breath weapons, and creatures in gaseous form cannot pass through the wall (although it is no barrier to incorporeal creatures).
While the wall must be vertical, you can shape it in any continuous path along the ground that you like. It is possible to create cylindrical or square wind walls to enclose specific points.
Arcane Material Component: A tiny fan and a feather of exotic origin.

by the rules i think that the fireball would likley ignore the wind wall [because it does not specificly affect spells] and definitly would not detonate against the wind wall.

Flavor wise, which is what makes magic magical IMHO , i would say since wind is the dominating element [air] it would defect the spell pellet upward, leaving the fireball to explodes when it goes its predetermind distance. .

 

[Sejs]

"A creature can pick up and hurl the bead as a thrown weapon (range increment 10 feet)."

... I wonder what happens if you miss. Where does the bead and it's subsequent firebally offspring end up?

 

[Jarrod]

One thing to remember about the fireball "bead" is that it is a specific exception to the Line of Effect rule.

From the SRD: An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect.

So normally you would have to have a 1' square hole in a wall. Fireball allows you to cast the spell through a smaller hole, but you have to make an attack roll. You can cast a Fireball through an arrow slit, but not a Lightning Bolt.

Why? 'cause that's how it worked in earlier editions; but that's not really the point.

As to whether a Wind Wall would deflect the bead. IMO, no, as the bead is an explanation for why you can send a Fireball down a mouse hole. It's an artifact of earlier flavor text.

 

[cmanos]

I wopuld rule that a Wind Wall doesn't afect the fireball. IMHO, the 'bead' is insubstantial. I';d have to consider if the wind wall would be sufficiently solid for the fireball to explode prematurely.

Sure, a monk could try and deflect it. As soon as his hand douched it it would explode, and I would deny him the evasion for being at the dead center of the blast.

Just my ruling, you can make up whatever house rules you like.

 

[Caliban]

I don't think that the fire ball bead is a "normal projectile", and it certainly isn't a sling bullet. You only have to make an attack roll with it under certain circumstances, otherwise it goes exactly where you want it to go and explodes.

I could see a 30% chance of it hitting a piece of debris in the wind wall as it passes through, but that would be a judgement call based on the situation you cast the wind wall.

 

[Vrecknidj]

Here's an option from an old, old WotC product (The Primal Order). The DM could assign relative values to the Wind Wall spell and the Fireball spell (both are usually 3rd level spells, so let's assume they both are, for now). Since the spells are of equal power (unless one is being cast with a metamagic feat to enhance it), there's no modifier from the spell itself.

Now the DM looks at the two casters. Suppose, for example, that the Fireball's caster is an evoker, maybe the DM would give him a +1. (Same, by the way, if the Wind Wall caster were an evoker, since both spells are evocation.)

The DM adds up any modifiers, and has the two make caster level checks. The one with the higher result overcomes the other (i.e. my magic over-powers your magic). The DM could rule that for every 5 ranks in Spellcraft, the individual gets a +1 to the roll, similarly with Knowledge (arcana), or whatever.

This allows both Jeff and Pendragon to be right, sometimes. If the person tossing the fireball is 17th level and is an evoker and has tons of ranks in those skills, he might have faced this defense before, and has learned how to overcome it. The measly 8th level wizard facing him hasn't ever thought that someone could figure out how to circumvent his Wind Wall defense.

Contrarily, if the person tossing the Fireball is a new-to-the-game 5th level wizard, trying to impress his other 5th level friends by tossing a Fireball at the powerful mage, he doesn't consider that the powerful mage has spent years crafting adequate defenses to this, and puts up a Wind Wall with just the right gusts to prevent the Fireball from affecting him.

This allows for some variation in the story-telling, it allows for the chance that the weaker of the two wil overcome the more powerful (as the story will sometimes allow), but usually favors the better prepared and more skillful.

Dave

 

[KarinsDad]

Anything that would stop the line of effect of the Fireball spell would detonate it.

So, water would detonate it. Water is considered "a material body" in this case.

A Wind Wall would not because it does not stop line of effect.

It would also not stop the "bead" of a Delayed Blast Fireball. It would still go to its destination, just like the bead from a Fireball would go to its destination.

Nothing in the rules states that these beads are actually missiles of any type.

So, a Monk could not deflect one. He could impact the Fireball bead and it would go off. He could also impact the Delayed Blast Fireball bead, but it would still continue on its way to its destination unless the act of him touching it detonates it. Nothing in the description of Delayed Blast Fireball indicates that you can prevent the bead from arriving at its destination short of detonating it (or dispelling it, etc.).

Once it arrives at its destination, the Delayed Blast Fireball bead then becomes an object (if you chose the delayed version). But, nothing in the description of the spell indicates that it is an object before that happens. Before then, it is magic, not an object, not a missile.

You cannot assume that the bead is an object before it arrives at its destination just because it is an object once it gets there.


Btw, even if the bead of a Delayed Blast Fireball could be affected by the Wind Wall, that does not mean that the bead of a Fireball could. They are two different spells and you cannot use the properties of the one to assume the properties of the other with the exception that you can use some of the properties of the Fireball spell for the Delayed Blast Fireball spell because Delayed Blast Fireball explicitly states that. But, you cannot assume in the opposite direction.