FoxWander
Adventurer
Looking for a couple of things here: First, ideas or thoughts on a feat similar to Master Spellthief (from Complete Scoundrel- I'll give the gist of it below if you don't have that) but intended for a multi-class Warmage / Arcane Caster. And second, thoughts and opinions on whether the Master Spellthief feat is even balanced.
A quick rundown of the feat- "Master Spellthief" is another of those 'class combo' feats introduced with the Ascetic and Devoted class of feats in Complete Adventurer. Specifically it enhances a Spellthief/Arcane caster combo. The benefits are: your levels stack for determining the level of spells you can steal, levels stack to determine caster level for arcane spells (both from spellthief and the other arcane class) AND no arcane spell failure, from light armor only, for all arcane spells you cast- as a spellthief or otherwise.
First thing first- Replace Spellthief with Warmage and you can see how a feat like this would be really nice for a Warmage/other arcane caster combo. No arcane spell failure for ALL your spells alone would be nice, but with Master Spellthief as a guide, maybe some other benefits can fit in as well.
All the 'class combo' feats give some kind of benefit to some schtick of both classes. Master Spellthief enhances the spell stealing schtick, boosts caster level for both classes AND throws in armored casting as icing on the cake. (I'll get into whether this is even balanced at all next.) So what schticks could a proposed 'Master Warmage' feat enhance? As a straight conversion of Master Spellthief the only problem is translating the spell stealing benefit into a relevant schtick of the Warmage- keeping the caster level boost and armored mage benefits.
Of the Warmage's class abilities, which is his main "thing" in the way spell stealing is to a Spellthief? Warmage's get Warmage Edge, Advanced Learning and bonus Sudden Metamagic feats. I'll start with the last two first. You could continue getting spells from Advance Learning per your combined level in both classes, and maybe it could be opened up to other spell schools besides Evocation. Removing the 'evocation only' limit is appropriate, I think, because spell stealing is a BIG part of Spellthief, whereas Advance Learning (as is) is just a spiffy perk for a Warmage who already knows most of the best Evocation spells. Or your levels could stack for the purpose of gaining bonus Sudden Metamagic feats. Those bonus feats are probably a big enough "thing" for the Warmage for this to be an appropriate translation.
Arguably though, Warmage Edge is the the Warmage's biggest trick- or at least the one most likely to come up as often as spell stealing would for a Spellthief. However, I'm drawing a blank for ideas to boost it in any way that's at all balanced since extra damage is a pretty major benefit, for any class. Also, I can't think of any kind of "your levels stack" kind of idea that works towards Warmage Edge since that's a static ability unless your INT goes up.
So there's the first part- any ideas for translating Master Spellthief into Master Warmage?
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Now second thing second- is Master Spellthief even remotely balanced all by itself? The first and third benefits, spellstealing and armored casting, are just fine. Pretty good benefits and about equal to the other 'class combo' feats. But that second benefit is the problem- your levels stack to determine your caster level for all arcane spells!!!! That's Practiced Spellcaster twice in one feat! Even better in fact, since it gives more than just a +4 max bonus. AND you get two other nice perks as well. Heck, caster level stacking is half the main schtick of whole prestige classes like Mystic Theurge and such.
Now granted, I'm of the opinion that the Spellthief sucks to begin with- so maybe this feat at least let's it not suck so much when combined with another casting class. And full progression spellstealing is a good trade off for a 1 level drop-behind in spell level availability for your other class. But still, it's Practiced Spellcaster (the feat designed to make multi-classed casters suck less)- TWICE - with the other cool benefits thrown in! That's probably too much no matter how crappy one of the classes it's benefiting might be.
So how does this change my original idea of creating a "Master Warmage" feat? I don't know. Is what's allowed for one class combo fair/balanced when applied to another? Of course not! Certainly this feat wouldn't be appropriate if it were called "Master Cleric" for example. As applied by the Master Spellthief template, THAT feat would be truly horrendous. Spell stealing probably translates to turning undead for a cleric- so you'd get full turning ability, full caster level for cleric and arcane PLUS armored casting in up to light armor!
Obviously what's good for the goose IS NOT good for the gander, so to speak.
So another question (for anyone that's still reading this and interested in helping out)- how would you translate the [probably] unbalanced Master Spellthief into Master Warmage?
Any help or ideas would be greatly appreciated (and probably spark some interesting discussion).
A quick rundown of the feat- "Master Spellthief" is another of those 'class combo' feats introduced with the Ascetic and Devoted class of feats in Complete Adventurer. Specifically it enhances a Spellthief/Arcane caster combo. The benefits are: your levels stack for determining the level of spells you can steal, levels stack to determine caster level for arcane spells (both from spellthief and the other arcane class) AND no arcane spell failure, from light armor only, for all arcane spells you cast- as a spellthief or otherwise.
First thing first- Replace Spellthief with Warmage and you can see how a feat like this would be really nice for a Warmage/other arcane caster combo. No arcane spell failure for ALL your spells alone would be nice, but with Master Spellthief as a guide, maybe some other benefits can fit in as well.
All the 'class combo' feats give some kind of benefit to some schtick of both classes. Master Spellthief enhances the spell stealing schtick, boosts caster level for both classes AND throws in armored casting as icing on the cake. (I'll get into whether this is even balanced at all next.) So what schticks could a proposed 'Master Warmage' feat enhance? As a straight conversion of Master Spellthief the only problem is translating the spell stealing benefit into a relevant schtick of the Warmage- keeping the caster level boost and armored mage benefits.
Of the Warmage's class abilities, which is his main "thing" in the way spell stealing is to a Spellthief? Warmage's get Warmage Edge, Advanced Learning and bonus Sudden Metamagic feats. I'll start with the last two first. You could continue getting spells from Advance Learning per your combined level in both classes, and maybe it could be opened up to other spell schools besides Evocation. Removing the 'evocation only' limit is appropriate, I think, because spell stealing is a BIG part of Spellthief, whereas Advance Learning (as is) is just a spiffy perk for a Warmage who already knows most of the best Evocation spells. Or your levels could stack for the purpose of gaining bonus Sudden Metamagic feats. Those bonus feats are probably a big enough "thing" for the Warmage for this to be an appropriate translation.
Arguably though, Warmage Edge is the the Warmage's biggest trick- or at least the one most likely to come up as often as spell stealing would for a Spellthief. However, I'm drawing a blank for ideas to boost it in any way that's at all balanced since extra damage is a pretty major benefit, for any class. Also, I can't think of any kind of "your levels stack" kind of idea that works towards Warmage Edge since that's a static ability unless your INT goes up.
So there's the first part- any ideas for translating Master Spellthief into Master Warmage?
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Now second thing second- is Master Spellthief even remotely balanced all by itself? The first and third benefits, spellstealing and armored casting, are just fine. Pretty good benefits and about equal to the other 'class combo' feats. But that second benefit is the problem- your levels stack to determine your caster level for all arcane spells!!!! That's Practiced Spellcaster twice in one feat! Even better in fact, since it gives more than just a +4 max bonus. AND you get two other nice perks as well. Heck, caster level stacking is half the main schtick of whole prestige classes like Mystic Theurge and such.
Now granted, I'm of the opinion that the Spellthief sucks to begin with- so maybe this feat at least let's it not suck so much when combined with another casting class. And full progression spellstealing is a good trade off for a 1 level drop-behind in spell level availability for your other class. But still, it's Practiced Spellcaster (the feat designed to make multi-classed casters suck less)- TWICE - with the other cool benefits thrown in! That's probably too much no matter how crappy one of the classes it's benefiting might be.
So how does this change my original idea of creating a "Master Warmage" feat? I don't know. Is what's allowed for one class combo fair/balanced when applied to another? Of course not! Certainly this feat wouldn't be appropriate if it were called "Master Cleric" for example. As applied by the Master Spellthief template, THAT feat would be truly horrendous. Spell stealing probably translates to turning undead for a cleric- so you'd get full turning ability, full caster level for cleric and arcane PLUS armored casting in up to light armor!
Obviously what's good for the goose IS NOT good for the gander, so to speak. So another question (for anyone that's still reading this and interested in helping out)- how would you translate the [probably] unbalanced Master Spellthief into Master Warmage?
Any help or ideas would be greatly appreciated (and probably spark some interesting discussion).
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