D&D 5E [+]Exploration Falls Short For Many Groups, Let’s Talk About It

[Hussar]

I have to admit that my list of "this is a PITA and I don't want it in my games" has become longer and longer. Mostly it's stuff that shuts down encounters. I was going to ban Banishment, for example, before I saw that 2024E is going to make it save/round.

But, @doctorbadwolf, while I realize that you may not be considering this stuff to be overpowered, I'd point the the rather extensive changes in spells from both Tasha's and now 2024e as evidence that perhaps, while you personally aren't having these issues, these aren't simply outlier table issues, but, rather, something that does occur at a number of tables, and perhaps your lack of problems simply comes from the players you are playing with, rather than a lack of problems with the spells themselves.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I think they should do this regardless of exploration and balance concerns tbh.

This is the kind of thing that I'm surprised no one has ever done and offered/sold on DMs Guild. An entire booklet of curated and condensed spell lists for all the different subclasses for all the different classes in the game. That way the Wild Mage sorcerer has a spell list that looks different than the 10 different Draconic sorcerer lists (one for each of the 10 colors), which looks different than the Divine Soul sorcerer's list, which looks different than the Archfey, Fiend, and Great Old One's warlock spell lists, and so forth. Then of course there are differing spell lists for all the differing clerical domains, the different lands of the circle of land druids, every wizarding school, etc.

Now of course even if a product like this gets written, best of luck to the DM finding players who are actually interested and willing to go along with this sort of theming-- because if you offer up a cleric domain that doesn't include Guidance on its list, or a transmuter or necromancy school that doesn't have Fireball... you're going to probably get pushback. But there's not much you can do about a player who says they want to play a Necromancer, but whose spells they use just happens to mainly consist of Evocation damage. Yeah, the idea of being a necromancer sounds fun in a broad sense... but good luck getting them to only use Vampiric Touch in combat at 5th level rather than Lightning Bolt, LOL.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This is the kind of thing that I'm surprised no one has ever done and offered/sold on DMs Guild. An entire booklet of curated and condensed spell lists for all the different subclasses for all the different classes in the game. That way the Wild Mage sorcerer has a spell list that looks different than the 10 different Draconic sorcerer lists (one for each of the 10 colors), which looks different than the Divine Soul sorcerer's list, which looks different than the Archfey, Fiend, and Great Old One's warlock spell lists, and so forth. Then of course there are differing spell lists for all the differing clerical domains, the different lands of the circle of land druids, every wizarding school, etc.

Now of course even if a product like this gets written, best of luck to the DM finding players who are actually interested and willing to go along with this sort of theming-- because if you offer up a cleric domain that doesn't include Guidance on its list, or a transmuter or necromancy school that doesn't have Fireball... you're going to probably get pushback. But there's not much you can do about a player who says they want to play a Necromancer, but whose spells they use just happens to mainly consist of Evocation damage. Yeah, the idea of being a necromancer sounds fun in a broad sense... but good luck getting them to only use Vampiric Touch in combat at 5th level rather than Lightning Bolt, LOL.

Yeah, telling people to intentionally limit their PCs power, or worse, tell them you're going to do that for them, is very likely to go over like a lead balloon. It's why people get irritated when the OP is released. Once it's out, very hard to put the toothpaste back in.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

This is the kind of thing that I'm surprised no one has ever done and offered/sold on DMs Guild. An entire booklet of curated and condensed spell lists for all the different subclasses for all the different classes in the game. That way the Wild Mage sorcerer has a spell list that looks different than the 10 different Draconic sorcerer lists (one for each of the 10 colors), which looks different than the Divine Soul sorcerer's list, which looks different than the Archfey, Fiend, and Great Old One's warlock spell lists, and so forth. Then of course there are differing spell lists for all the differing clerical domains, the different lands of the circle of land druids, every wizarding school, etc.

Now of course even if a product like this gets written, best of luck to the DM finding players who are actually interested and willing to go along with this sort of theming-- because if you offer up a cleric domain that doesn't include Guidance on its list, or a transmuter or necromancy school that doesn't have Fireball... you're going to probably get pushback. But there's not much you can do about a player who says they want to play a Necromancer, but whose spells they use just happens to mainly consist of Evocation damage. Yeah, the idea of being a necromancer sounds fun in a broad sense... but good luck getting them to only use Vampiric Touch in combat at 5th level rather than Lightning Bolt, LOL.

Part of the problem for sure is just that some spells suck lol

And there was no attempt to cover all the bases when making spells. So, you can get pretty far on a cold theme, or a fire theme, but good luck with most other elements, and same deal with schools.

I do think that each tradition has to have multiple school’s spells, but that doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be utility evocations and battle divinations.

 

[M_Natas]

This is the kind of thing that I'm surprised no one has ever done and offered/sold on DMs Guild. An entire booklet of curated and condensed spell lists for all the different subclasses for all the different classes in the game. That way the Wild Mage sorcerer has a spell list that looks different than the 10 different Draconic sorcerer lists (one for each of the 10 colors), which looks different than the Divine Soul sorcerer's list, which looks different than the Archfey, Fiend, and Great Old One's warlock spell lists, and so forth. Then of course there are differing spell lists for all the differing clerical domains, the different lands of the circle of land druids, every wizarding school, etc.

Now of course even if a product like this gets written, best of luck to the DM finding players who are actually interested and willing to go along with this sort of theming-- because if you offer up a cleric domain that doesn't include Guidance on its list, or a transmuter or necromancy school that doesn't have Fireball... you're going to probably get pushback. But there's not much you can do about a player who says they want to play a Necromancer, but whose spells they use just happens to mainly consist of Evocation damage. Yeah, the idea of being a necromancer sounds fun in a broad sense... but good luck getting them to only use Vampiric Touch in combat at 5th level rather than Lightning Bolt, LOL.

When you curate spell lists, you need to add spells.

I actually curate the spell lists for the Wizard Schools some month back, by condensing all wizards schools into one subclass: The specialist wizard:

https://www.enworld.org/threads/the-specialist-wizard-the-wizard-2-0.700649/#post-9173186

So, I locked certain spells behind proficiency and expertise and with the specialist subclass you pick expertise in one school of magic, unlocking the most powerful spells of that class. I also added spells to fill out some lacking schools of magic.

This way, even though I removed all the separate subclass features if the school of magic subclasses, the wizard's feelndistinct by their choice of expertise kn a school of magic.
I also added spells to make of for the loss of subclass features.

It also really saves on Page count in comparison to having 8 subclasses.

 

[Zardnaar]

I have to admit that my list of "this is a PITA and I don't want it in my games" has become longer and longer. Mostly it's stuff that shuts down encounters. I was going to ban Banishment, for example, before I saw that 2024E is going to make it save/round.

But, @doctorbadwolf, while I realize that you may not be considering this stuff to be overpowered, I'd point the the rather extensive changes in spells from both Tasha's and now 2024e as evidence that perhaps, while you personally aren't having these issues, these aren't simply outlier table issues, but, rather, something that does occur at a number of tables, and perhaps your lack of problems simply comes from the players you are playing with, rather than a lack of problems with the spells themselves.

Main reason we use banishment is its also a charisma save.

Target that or intelligence if you can.

 

[Zardnaar]

This is the kind of thing that I'm surprised no one has ever done and offered/sold on DMs Guild. An entire booklet of curated and condensed spell lists for all the different subclasses for all the different classes in the game. That way the Wild Mage sorcerer has a spell list that looks different than the 10 different Draconic sorcerer lists (one for each of the 10 colors), which looks different than the Divine Soul sorcerer's list, which looks different than the Archfey, Fiend, and Great Old One's warlock spell lists, and so forth. Then of course there are differing spell lists for all the differing clerical domains, the different lands of the circle of land druids, every wizarding school, etc.

Now of course even if a product like this gets written, best of luck to the DM finding players who are actually interested and willing to go along with this sort of theming-- because if you offer up a cleric domain that doesn't include Guidance on its list, or a transmuter or necromancy school that doesn't have Fireball... you're going to probably get pushback. But there's not much you can do about a player who says they want to play a Necromancer, but whose spells they use just happens to mainly consist of Evocation damage. Yeah, the idea of being a necromancer sounds fun in a broad sense... but good luck getting them to only use Vampiric Touch in combat at 5th level rather than Lightning Bolt, LOL.

2E arcane spheres in concept.

I kinda liked specislust losing access to opposed schools as well.

 

[M_Natas]

2E arcane spheres in concept.

I kinda liked specislust losing access to opposed schools as well.

In my Wizard 2.0 concept I envisioned wizards more like todays academics:

Like, everybody has general knowledge, that will be general spells (simple, easy spells every wizard can cast). That are like the "High School Level spells".
For more complicated spells, you need to specialise in a field. First you get proficiency in a school of magic, because you studied that field, enabling you to cast certain spells from hat field. Later you gain a "Master" in that field, so you are able to cast masterspells from that school of magic.
Like today a Bachelor of Informatic doesn't habe a lot of knowledge of biology or a master of Physics doesn't know a lot about psychology.

So if you become an expert in necromancy, you just didn't had the time to learn a lot about charms or any other of the schools of magic.

Guarding certain "overpowered" spells behind profound expertise is the way to go.

It Will profoundly balance the game. You have expertise in Evocation to cast fireball? No more counterspell for you, because that needs expertise in abjuration.

 

[Zardnaar]

In my Wizard 2.0 concept I envisioned wizards more like todays academics:

Like, everybody has general knowledge, that will be general spells (simple, easy spells every wizard can cast). That are like the "High School Level spells".
For more complicated spells, you need to specialise in a field. First you get proficiency in a school of magic, because you studied that field, enabling you to cast certain spells from hat field. Later you gain a "Master" in that field, so you are able to cast masterspells from that school of magic.
Like today a Bachelor of Informatic doesn't habe a lot of knowledge of biology or a master of Physics doesn't know a lot about psychology.

So if you become an expert in necromancy, you just didn't had the time.to.lewrn a lot about charms or any other of the schools of magic.

Guarding certain "overpowered" spells behind profound expertise is the way to go.

It Will profoundly balance the game. You have expertise in Evocation to cast fireball? No more counterspell for you, because that needs expertise in abjuration.

2E birthright did sonething like that iirc.

Spells and Magic had universal school.

Something like the 3.5 Warmage and Beguiler in concept were interesting. Wrong edition.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Part of the problem for sure is just that some spells suck lol

And there was no attempt to cover all the bases when making spells. So, you can get pretty far on a cold theme, or a fire theme, but good luck with most other elements, and same deal with schools.

I do think that each tradition has to have multiple school’s spells, but that doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be utility evocations and battle divinations.

Well indeed, were I to do something like this, there definitely would be "universal" spells that would appear (or at least be available) on all manner of spell lists-- Detect Magic, Protection From Good And Evil, Counterspell, etc. And at least in the case of Wizard schools, were I to do it I wouldn't just say "Transmuters get all and only transmutation schools" but curate it more so that they would get other school spells to help widen their facility. But the primary, cool, and best transmutations would probably remain just under their aegis-- like I wouldn't forsee any other Wizard school spell list getting Polymorph for instance.

But at the end of the day... for any of this to matter would require someone to actually care enough about the process to go through the effort of doing it. And even if someone did... they'd have to go into it knowing there will be plenty of people who will decry it as unbalanced or pointless or any other reason people will complain about things that get made that they don't like. So I'm certainly not going to worry about it if some folks here don't see how it could work (for themselves or just in general.)