Entagle vs. Diminish Plants

[schporto]

Anybody have some insight on how these two spells would interact? Specifically someone has cast Entagle, and then someone casts Diminish Plants to try to undo some/all of the effect. Strictly reading DP doesn't say "counters entangle", but the text seems to indicate it should with "becoming untangled".
My opinion is that it won't undo all the effect but reduce the save and the strength break free DC by 4. Does that sound reasonable?

Diminish Plants
Transmutation
Level: Drd 3, Rgr 3
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target or Area: See text
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
This spell has two versions.
Prune Growth: This version causes normal vegetation within long range (400 feet + 40 feet per level) to shrink to about one-third of their normal size, becoming untangled and less bushy. The affected vegetation appears to have been carefully pruned and trimmed.
At your option, the area can be a 100- foot-radius circle, a 150-foot-radius semicircle, or a 200-foot-radius quarter-circle.
You may also designate portions of the area that are not affected.
Stunt Growth: This version targets normal plants within a range of 1/2 mile, reducing their potential productivity over the course of the following year to one third below normal.
Diminish plants counters plant growth.
This spell has no effect on plant creatures.

Entangle
Transmutation
Level: Drd 1, Plant 1, Rgr 1
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: Plants in a 40-ft.-radius spread
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Reflex partial; see text
Spell Resistance: No
Grasses, weeds, bushes, and even trees wrap, twist, and entwine about creatures in the area or those that enter the area, holding them fast and causing them to become entangled. The creature can break free and move half its normal speed by using a full-round action to make a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 20 Escape Artist check. A creature that succeeds on a Reflex save is not entangled but can still move at only half speed through the area. Each round on your turn, the plants once again attempt to entangle all creatures that have avoided or escaped entanglement.
Note: The effects of the spell may be altered somewhat, based on the nature of the entangling plants.

Thanks.
-cpd

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

IMO, no, it shouldn't work, since Diminish Plants affects normal plants, and entangling plants aren't normal anymore.

Of course, on the other hand, a 3rd-level spell should be able to counteract a 1st-level spell.

A "undecisive monday" R

 

[dcollins]

Totally up to the DM. Myself, I'd let it totally counter entangle as it's (a) fairly clever usage, and (b) a 3rd vs. 1st level spell.

 

[Enkhidu]

I'd let it work, mainly because of the 3rd level vs 1st level thing. But, instead of overrunning the Entanglement completely, I'd probably reduce it to 1/3 the original size to keep it in line with the rest of the spell effects.

 

[Marimmar]

I'd let it work because of the clause becoming untangled and the 3rd vs 1st level spell. Besides anyone preparing such a weird/specialized spell like Diminish Plants should get something out of it.

~Marimmar

 

[KarinsDad]

I disagree.

Saying that plants under the magic of an Entangle spell are no longer normal plants is like saying a human under the magic of a Transformation spell is no longer a normal human and cannot be affected by say a Charm Person.

"normal vegetation" means vegetation which is not intelligent, not a monster, not part of a template, etc.

It does not mean vegetation that has a spell cast on it. Now, since it is a transformation spell, some people might disagree, but I think this is not stated anywhere in the rules that the plant is no longer normal vegetation.


With regard to the original question, reducing the save DC by 4 is reasonable. In my previous campaign, this is what I did if the spell was cast in an area of short grass (e.g. a field where herd animals graze).

The Entangle spell should state that the plants elongate so that questions like "short grass" do not come up in a game, but the designers cannot think of everything.

Another aspect of "short grass" situations (either naturally, or after a Diminish Plant spell) is that it would hold fast the legs, but unless the character falls, would not hold fast the arms. Hence, melee weapons and missile weapons such as bows could still be used (maybe at a penalty).

 

[Pickaxe]

Another aspect of "short grass" situations (either naturally, or after a Diminish Plant spell) is that it would hold fast the legs, but unless the character falls, would not hold fast the arms. Hence, melee weapons and missile weapons such as bows could still be used (maybe at a penalty).

That's already true of entanglement in the rules. Being entangled gives you a -2 to all attacks and -4 to effective Dexterity.

--Axe

 

[KarinsDad]

That's already true of entanglement in the rules. Being entangled gives you a -2 to all attacks and -4 to effective Dexterity.

Sorry, I meant maybe at a lower penalty than normal.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I would allow diminish plants to counteract entangle.

1. It is a higher level spell

2. It certainly appears to be within the spirit of the spell (becomes unentangled)

3. The number of other uses for the spell would be distinctly... diminished.

I think the clause about "normal vegetation" is only there to rule out its use against treants, shambling mounds, other plant creatures and spells like wall of thorns. Entangle makes normal plants move in unnatural ways, but they are still mere normal plants.

Cheers