D&D (2024) Dual Wielding

[Chaosmancer]

Just as an FYI this math is off and there is no way to have both PAM and GWM at 5th level.

Ah true, I just got caught up in comparing builds. Should still work by 6th.

2(1d10+4) 19 + (1d4+4) = 25.5
35 if you are able to get off a reaction attack.

With gwm as a 6th level fighter you now deal 31.5 or 41 with a reaction attack and finally a total of 44 if you use your bonus action for a gwm attack.

If I were going to go the polearm route the average damage from just having GWM is 25 with a possible 34.5 from the GWM bonuses action attack. So given that in my mind the reaction attack of PAM will happen about as often as the bonus attack of GWM I would still chose GWM over PAM if I could only have one, unless I have a rider effect on weapon to get more damage per hit like elemental weapon, hex, or hunters mark against heavy hitters.

Seems reasonable

 

[Chaosmancer]

It should be three attacks according to the post you have just quoted.

No?

The idea is that you attack twice at level 5, once from nick which doesn't use the bonus action but is tied to the light property, then once from Dual Wielder which is not tied to the light action, but uses the bonus action.

Four attacks.

 

[Chaosmancer]

+12.5% chance to land sneak attack (i.e. you missed your first 2 attacks, and have 50% chance to hit).

Including the basic d6 you get
+6.125 damage at level 20 (ignoring all other features).

I'd say it's one of the weaker feats unless you get some major add-one (conjure Minor Elemental), but it's not garbage.

Side note. None of this says melee. Hand crossbows are light weapons.

While true that they are light, they don't have Nick, and Crossbow expert is better for getting a bonus action hand crossbow attack.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

For a moment, I misread this as "Dual Wedding", which would have been kind of interesting.

Not thrilled with the nerf to the Dual Wielder feat in 5.5e. It was kind of the point that you could use two non-light weapons.

 

[mellored]

While true that they are light, they don't have Nick, and Crossbow expert is better for getting a bonus action hand crossbow attack.

Fair.

But you can also throw daggers.

 

[WanderingMystic]

Fair.

But you can also throw daggers.

Not that while you can draw as part of your attacks made with an attack action that last bonus action throw you will not be able to draw immediately. It shouldn't be a problem since you should always still have a dagger in one hand but something to remember.

 

[Nefermandias]

No?

The idea is that you attack twice at level 5, once from nick which doesn't use the bonus action but is tied to the light property, then once from Dual Wielder which is not tied to the light action, but uses the bonus action.

Four attacks.

At level 5, with Extra Attack, yes.

 

[Chaosmancer]

For a moment, I misread this as "Dual Wedding", which would have been kind of interesting.

Not thrilled with the nerf to the Dual Wielder feat in 5.5e. It was kind of the point that you could use two non-light weapons.

While true.... this is actually a buff. It is less cool, but 3d8+15 is 28.5 and 4d6+20 is 34.

It is a nerf if you WANT to use larger weapons, but if the point is to be a better Two-Weapon Warrior.... this ends up being a lot stronger.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

While true.... this is actually a buff. It is less cool, but 3d8+15 is 28.5 and 4d6+20 is 34.

It is a nerf if you WANT to use larger weapons, but if the point is to be a better Two-Weapon Warrior.... this ends up being a lot stronger.

Is this comparison "what the current feat would be if you could use two non-light weapons"? Or is it comparing two non-light weapons to comparing one and one + the new feat stuff?

Because I was making the former comparison.

 

[ECMO3]

Fifth Form
The fifth form is the interesting combination of the third and fourth forms.

While the Dual Wielder feat allows you to bypass the restriction that the second weapon must be Light, it doesn't require you to. It only requires that the weapon not be Two-Handed. But what if we return to using a Light weapon?

Well, when we attack with a Light weapon, the Light property itself allows for an extra attack with a second Light weapon. This is satisfied.

When we attack with a Light weapon, the Dual Wielder feat allows for an extra attack with a second weapon. This is satisfied.

And this is what our Bonus Action list looks like now, using a shortsword + handaxe:

Item #	Action	Cause
1	Cunning Action	Class Feature
2	Attack with handaxe	Attack with shortsword (Light property)
3	Attack with handaxe	Attack with shortsword (Dual Wielder feat)

Unfortunately, we only have one Bonus Action, which means we only get to use one of those additional attacks. At this point, nothing has changed compared to the previous forms other than a curiosity in the Bonus Action list.

But what if the second weapon has the Nick property?

Well, you don't need to push the extra attack into the Bonus Action list, but can instead make that attack as part of your Attack action directly. However, importantly, you can only use this feature once per turn. This is a strange restriction, until we fully explore this form of dual wielding.

So now what happens if we use a shortsword + scimitar? Instead of the above Bonus Action list, we get the following:

Item #	Action	Cause
1	Cunning Action	Class Feature
2	Attack with scimitar	Attack with shortsword (Dual Wielder feat)

And this is what our attack sequence looks like:

Attack action: Shortsword (1d6+MOD dmg)
Attack action (Extra): Shortsword (1d6+MOD dmg) or Scimitar (1d6+MOD dmg)
Attack action (Nick): Scimitar (1d6 dmg) (or 1d6+MOD damage with the TWF fighting style)
Bonus action: Scimitar (1d6 dmg) (or 1d6+MOD damage with the TWF fighting style)

So the fifth dual wielding form can make four attacks per turn using a combination of the Dual Wielder feat and the Nick weapon mastery. Note that the restriction of only applying Nick once per turn means you can't put all four attacks into the Attack action and still have your Bonus action free for other things.

Note that I said we could add our MOD to both additional attacks. From the fighting style:


And both additional attacks are the result of using a weapon that has the Light property. Thus both benefit from the Two-Weapon Fighting style.

In this 5th form I do not think you get the mod damage for the bonus action scimitar attack.

The reason is twofold. The TWF fighting style only gives you the mod bonus based on attacks you make using the light property and this attack comes from the dual wielding feat, not the light property. Second, the Dual Wielding Feat explicitly says you do not get the mod bonus (specific overiding general).

This is the same with the 4th form when using the battle axe. No mod damage on the bonus action attack regardless of the fighting style feat you have.