Dragons: how many in an average continent?

[taliesin15]

In fleshing out a continent, I was thinking that Dragons must be even more rare than usually presented. Take two facts: by nature, they are highly territorial (quite like any predator), and the slowest ones can fly 120 miles in a day, the fastest 320. That's quite a huge range! Unless Dragons are constantly getting on each other's turf, say in one part of a continent, they'd have to be very scarce, especially given that land is also occupied by other strong monsters and characters, not to mention civilizations. Though there would be some overlap, I'm having a hard time imagining that too many Dragons would exist on an average continent.

Take two examples: a continent like medieval Europe, or say Greyhawk's Flanneass. In the latter I've noticed in some sources (particularly the Greyhawk Gazetteer) that there are Dragons in some of the mountain regions in the west and one of the forests. Seems in an area of say a 200 mile radius more than a few Dragons would likely be a place where Dragons would be constantly fighting each other for territory. Same thing in a chain of mountains.

It just doesn't seem like a continent the size of Europe, considering the range of a Dragon, would have more than ten or twelve Dragons--even that's pushing it a bit, I think. Unless one argues that Dragons tend to go in long hibernations after eating or something. Another idea is that some of them live in very remote places, perhaps distant islands, where they simply dominate all the land there, and fly to humanoid populated continents every once in a while to generally rape and pillage and raise hell.

Looking for suggestions on this conundrum.

 

[Boarstorm]

Well, sure they CAN fly 120 miles in a day... but really, who wants to spend two days going from one end of your territory to the other?

Especially when about 3-4 hours worth of flight time is all you need to have a sufficient food supply.

 

[Wik]

What Boarstorm said.

Personally, I'd just take a look at larger predators. A dragon probably needs to eat, what? Something the size of a cow every other day or so. That's really no different than a pack of lions.

Of course, personally, letting reality get in the way is a bad idea. I'd just follow your gut, and trust that your players will fail to notice.

The second you let common sense get in the way of fun, you're doooooOOoomed.

 

[Cerebral Paladin]

I have a couple assumptions that allows for a larger population.
(A) Defending their hoards keeps them pretty pinned down. They may be able to fly hundreds of miles per day, but usually they'll want to keep their jaunts short so they can get back.

(B) Dragons are smart enough that overlapping ranges doesn't necessarily equal death. Some dragons may form relationships like feudal relationships (where a more powerful dragon tolerates and protects a less powerful dragon in its territory in exchange for a share of loot/food/etc. and service.) Others may simply avoid fighting to conserve strength and avoid danger. It's easy to imagine a large red dragon that could and happily would kill smaller red dragons in its range, but doesn't seek them out (what if it's a trap? What if they ganged up, and then a silver made its move against the survivor?). The smaller red dragons would of course hunt in the less desirable places, maybe even taking on more dangerous prey like raiding towns that might send heroes after them (note the plot hook ) rather than hunting prey that the larger dragon views as its own. And of course dragons might tolerate their own descendants, either formally or by simply not going out of their way to kill them.

(C) Large periods of inactivity/quasi-hibernation don't bother me for dragons. They fit with lots of the mythological and fictional antecedents, and they're convenient for world design.

I think the big problem isn't how big an area could they fly to and doesn't that imply small numbers. To me, the question is whether there is enough of a food supply. How quickly does a dragon hunt out its range, or can they hunt sustainably? (I doubt reds are very sustainable.) How much food do they need per year? That could easily lead to conclusions that large populations are not sustainable, at least in the presence of large populations of humans, etc. But that's also a level of analysis that I usually don't get to beyond the most cursory handwaiving when I'm doing world-design.

Also, a few dragons go a long way, especially in the larger sizes. I'm not sure there's anything wrong if you conclude that there are almost no great wyrms in a typical continent (maybe a handful). Because the smaller dragons can more easily live within small niches, larger small dragon populations aren't a big problem.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think one dragon in a 500 mile radius is pretty realistic -- they ARE very territorial, and flying for a day to kick the crap out of a neighbor whose mere presence irritates you doesn't seem implausible -- and gives a nice distribution. I like my dragons to be a major element of a given area, so having only one per region plays into that nicely.

 

[Boarstorm]

Another thing to remember is that the larger a dragon's territory, the more time it has to spend patrolling it to ward off interlopers. After a certain point, it simply isn't feasible to be away from your hoard for so long.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Another thing to remember is that the larger a dragon's territory, the more time it has to spend patrolling it to ward off interlopers. After a certain point, it simply isn't feasible to be away from your hoard for so long.

/dm on

Oh, yes it is. First, it gives the adventurers a ticking clock. They can sneak it, defeat the lair wards, slay the guardians, steal the treasure and get out before the dragon returns -- they hope.

Dragons having to leave their lair periodically is awesome for the DM, because it advertises that "hey, there's a dragon's lair in the area. Roll your Gather Information checks, people."

/dm off

 

[Boarstorm]

Heh, I was coming at it from the dragon's perspective. And that's exactly WHY it doesn't want to dawdle too long.

 

[taliesin15]

Some interesting responses so far. So, how many, let's say Adult Dragons would you have in a continent like Europe? If you go with the suggested 500 mile radius, then not that many--20 at most?

Having designed continents before and seeing other campaign milieus (Greyhawk is one example), seems like a Chromatic Dragon of Adult or older variety would certainly affect politics in the region. Not quite, but almost like Iuz in Greyhawk. One can imagine that one country or part of a country would be severely decimated by a powerful Dragon, and other nearby would be intimidated. Almost like an ongoing natural disaster. Much more so than say a Minotaur in a maze.

 

[Mercule]

I really think it depends on the dragon type. Reds are insanely territorial and powerful. They are likely to be sparse.

Greens, while territorial, are also manipulative and political so I could see a pseudo-feudal system evolving there.

Blacks are aquatic, so they would tend to think more in terms of "this lake and its plain" and the like. Each body could potentially house a dragon. Larger dragons would move to larger bodies. You could also have an interesting situation where closer lakes in different systems house non-competing dragons, while a comparatively distant dragon lairing upstream is viewed as a threat.

Other factors are always in play, too. If there is a potentially hostile, significantly stronger dragon in an area, a clutch of dragons may stay together for hundreds of years for self-preservation. Eventually, they'll start in-fighting and either split or enter Thunderdome, but that'll be later than in wilder areas.