Dragon spellcasting questions.

[Dagredhel]

A few questions to which I'm undoubtedly the only one who hasn't the answers, as per usual, it seems...

Do dragons who cast spells as sorcerers have the same limitation on number of spells known as a sorcerer of their casting level?

And if the answer to the above is affirmative, then if a dragon can cast spells from clerical domains or from the entire list of clerical spells in lieu of arcane spells, does this mean the dragon adds all of those spells to its 'spells known'?

Thanks in advance.

 

[shilsen]

Yes, they have the same limitations. So an adult red dragon, which casts spells as a 7th lvl sorceror, knows two 3rd-lvl spells, as a human Sor7 does. Being able to cast clerical spells as arcane spells does not add to the spells know. The red dragon in my example can choose one or both of its known 3rd-lvl spells from the cleric spell list (or certain domains listed in its description), but will still know only two 3rd-lvl spells.

 

[Dagredhel]

Thank you, Shilsen. Is that your own reading of the rules, or can you refer me to some "official" ruling? Anyone else?

 

[shilsen]

I can think of two "official" quotations:

1) MMI (pg.9) - Some creatures can cast arcane or divine spells just as members of a spellcasting class can...These creatures are subject to the same spellcasting rules as characters are.

2) DnDFAQ (Monster section):

Q: When a dragon’s description says the dragon has access to cleric spells and certain domain spells as arcane spells, do those act as special sorcerer spells accessible to the dragon? Or are they a second set, as would be the case for a multiclass character?
A: The dragon has access to the spells, just as though they were arcane spells on the sorcerer list. The dragon uses these spells as part of its normal daily allotment of sorcerer spells. The dragon does not get any extra daily spells.

I hope that helps.

 

[Dagredhel]

Shilsen, if I had a Christmas card list, I'd put you on it.

Your second quote especially gets to the heart of my question, but the language still confuses me somewhat. It makes it clear that the dragon will have the same number of spells available as a sorcerer of its caster level. What I'm still concerned about is whether the dragon selects a limited number of spells from an expanded list that includes 'arcane versions' of the divine spells, or else knows and can cast any of the arcane versions of the divine spells to which it has "access". Maybe I'm just being thickheaded.

Thanks, though. Any further thoughts are appreciated.

 

[AuraSeer]

The FAQ entry states that the dragon treats those domain spells "as though they were arcane spells on the sorcerer list." My understanding is that a dragon who wants one of those spells must still choose it as one of his sorcerer picks.

For example, a juvenile blue dragon casts spells as a Sor1, which means he knows 2 first-level spells. He has access to domain spells from Air, Evil, and Law as arcane spells. But if he knows Magic Missile and Shield from the generic list, those are the only spells he gets. He is not able to cast the domain spells unless he learns them later in his career.

I'm not 100% certain about this though. I'm open to arguments for the other interpretation.

 

[kreynolds]

Your second quote especially gets to the heart of my question, but the language still confuses me somewhat. It makes it clear that the dragon will have the same number of spells available as a sorcerer of its caster level. What I'm still concerned about is whether the dragon selects a limited number of spells from an expanded list that includes 'arcane versions' of the divine spells, or else knows and can cast any of the arcane versions of the divine spells to which it has "access".

It's not as complicated as you think. From the SRD...

Spells: A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer...

Sorcerers have to pick the spells they know. This is a fact.

Some dragons can also cast spells from the cleric list or cleric domains as arcane spells.

The dragon can cast divine spells as arcane spells. What does it cast them as? A sorcerer. How do sorcerers cast spells? They know them. How many spells does the dragon know? However many spells an equal level sorcerer would know. Does it know all cleric and cleric domain spells? No. Why? Because it casts as a sorcerer, which means it has a limited amount of known spells.

Make sense?

 

[Dagredhel]

Hey there.

I think I may have finally figured out what was bothering me so much about this, and keeping me from accepting the lucid explanation above.

I was thinking that it wouldn't make sense for a dragon to choose spells from the sorcerer and cleric lists, and from certain domains, because I was making the mistaken assumption that the two class lists would cover the domain spells as well. I guess I was conflating 'cleric' with 'divine', because I was neglecting druid spells found on neither of the other lists, wasn't I?

Hopefully, I'm correct in recalling that there are dragons who get to choose spells from the entire list of clerical spells. Do these have additional 'access' to domains which offer druid spells? Is that what I was missing that was putting such a wrench in my gears?

To be honest, I had assumed for quite a while that some dragons had whole clerical domains as additional spells known, sort of like some prestige classes.

Anyways, thanks again, and sorry for being such a pain.

 

[AuraSeer]

Hopefully, I'm correct in recalling that there are dragons who get to choose spells from the entire list of clerical spells. Do these have additional 'access' to domains which offer druid spells? Is that what I was missing that was putting such a wrench in my gears?

Sure, the red dragon is one example. Via the Fire domain, it has access to Elemental Swarm, which is not on the cleric or sorcerer lists.

There are also spells that have different levels on the various lists. Fire Storm is an 8th-level cleric spell, it's 7th level in the Fire domain, so that red dragon can learn it as a 7th-level spell.

 

[shilsen]

Shilsen, if I had a Christmas card list, I'd put you on it.

You're welcome