D&D (2024) DMG 2024: Is The Sandbox Campaign Dead?

[Remathilis]

For the record, I do not believe this is a relevant question.

Why not? It's not like WotC dropped support for it.

WotC (and Paizo) both tailored their gamemaster books to fit the style of play that they sell: adventure paths. Campaign arcs. Storylines. And to be fair, it's probably the most popular style of play and has been for a long time. And even then, many of both companies APs have adapted sandbox elements to them, making them more a hybrid mix of both sandbox exploration and storyline play. (Curse of Strahd, Tomb of Annihilation and Storm Kings Thunder all had large sandbox elements while keeping an overarching narrative).

But WotC doesn't really support the hexcrawl or "do anything" style of play because those aren't as popular and (I'll be frank) harder to support and monetize. And outside a brief resurgence in 3pp and the OS movement, they remain a niche playstyle compared to the AP style of hybrid linear and sandbox. I don't think the new DMG has changed that paradigm one iota.

 

[Belen]

Do you know how difficult it is to get players to make decisions? I try to allow agency and tell them they can pursue their own businesses or build keeps etc. I never get anyone to make the effort.

 

[Minigiant]

I am not "getting it" because you have not explained it. What are these 3 distinct playstyles, and how does 5E obviate one or all of them?

1. Lower power strategic struggles against the world
2. Middle power explorations in new wonders
3. High power pure power fantasy power trips

Base 5e is too heroic for 1 and lacks the random tables for 2.

 

[SkidAce]

Re OP: Sandbox campaigns are not dead.

(Now back to the 1st post to read the thread)

 

[TiQuinn]

I think true sandboxes are a rare campaign style. I can't really describe my campaign as a sandbox because while it evolves as encounters are resolved one way or another and change direction based on player decisions, I do have broad directions and goals for the campaign. Those directions and goals can and frequently do change based on what happens during play and what the players express interest in, but there's always at least one plot hook leading forward. In addition, true sandboxes that I've played in can become boring. There was a lack of motivation or direction to keep moving forward in games, a lack of interesting goals for us to pursue.

Meanwhile there is no clear definition of different styles of campaign and the differences between styles is fuzzy. Last I remember reading, roughly half of the games run are homebrew campaigns. But would my campaign qualify as a sandbox or not? How do you describe Critical Role where there are multiple paths the group can take to get to a specific goal? Heck if I know. There are enumerable ways of running campaigns including those that switch from one style to the next as the game progresses, or like mine where the players choose a direction for the next chapter of the campaign and for a little bit we're on a somewhat linear path.

But just because the DMG only talks about one style of game that works best for beginners, it means nothing about what kind of homebrew campaign people will run. There were complaints about the 2014 DMG being too wishy-washy and not giving clear direction for newbies. Now people are complaining about having concrete direction for newbies. Once again, WotC can't win.

I think that’s a good point. Even my definition of a sandbox is not what others consider a true sandbox. Mine was borne out of the 2nd edition days where you had Dungeon magazine with a bunch of mini adventures that you’d string together and sometimes throw in an official adventure from TSR, and sometimes something completely custom depending on what the party wanted to do. Sometimes it resulted in a hex crawl and sometimes it became a more urban adventure with a defined plot and arc, etc. While I like and prefer that form of campaign, I don’t expect WotC to go back to that. That’s for others to point out and write for.

 

[TiQuinn]

Yes, let's couch this discussion as bagging on WotC. That will surely help -- almost as much as turning it into a discussion about profits margins.

The subject is: will the lack of sandbox information in the 2024 DMG lead to a generation of people that come to D&D via 2024 NOT playing sandbox style games, or even knowing they exist?

I think Matt Colville was making the argument that we are already there with 5e even before the new edition, and it comes back to even if the DMG pointed it out, what products are available to actually support that?

 

[Bae'zel]

Base 5e is too heroic for 1...

I disagree: 5e can support "Lower power stragetic struggles against the world" with the right campaign setup and DMing approach. You can do it without massive houserules even.

Granted, the GM needs to know what they're doing, and where the more "heroic" traits are in the classes and encounter building recommendations, but it's easily doable.

...and lacks the random tables for 2.

What? Are random tables really all that is needed to support "Middle power explorations in new wonders"?? I find that a very odd argument.

 

[Oofta]

Yes, let's couch this discussion as bagging on WotC. That will surely help -- almost as much as turning it into a discussion about profits margins.

I was just pointing out that just about any decision they make gets criticized.

The subject is: will the lack of sandbox information in the 2024 DMG lead to a generation of people that come to D&D via 2024 NOT playing sandbox style games, or even knowing they exist?

No it will not lead the end of sandbox because if you're running a sandbox effectively you are already an experienced GM either running D&D or other systems and you don't need much advice. If you want ideas on how to run a sandbox it's just a quick search away. We live in a different world than what I grew up with when there was no internet, no google. The books don't have to cover every campaign style and I don't think they can nor do I think they should. The campaigns they describe are a good way to start for a new DM.

DMs need to figure out what kind of campaign works for them. Pure linear? Take a linear module and customize it for your PCs? Something between linear and sandbox? I have a fond hope, likely only to be provided by a 3PP, for an Advanced DM's Toolbox which is clearly aimed to something other than people new to the hobby. Include everything from faction maps for your campaign to the building your own monster (which I still think should have been in the MM) to a dozen other things that I can't think of off the top of my head.

 

[Minigiant]

I disagree: 5e can support "Lower power stragetic struggles against the world" with the right campaign setup and DMing approach. You can do it without massive houserules even.

Granted, the GM needs to know what they're doing, and where the more "heroic" traits are in the classes and encounter building recommendations, but it's easily doable.

But that's my point

Those variants and advice aren't in the official 5e books. They would require more pages in either DMG.

What? Are random tables really all that is needed to support "Middle power explorations in new wonders"?? I find that a very odd argument.

See above

 

[Micah Sweet]

I was reading through the 2024 DMG Adventure and Campaign chapters and something occurred to me: the DMG does not include player driven sandbox campaigning as mode of campaign play. The campaign framework that the DMG describes in detail and strongly advocates for is one of prepared adventures and established campaign throughlines. It offers some support for travel and exploration, but not a focus of play. Similarly, it mentions player goals in passing, but otherwise does not spend any time of establishing what this looks like as a way to play the game.

(As an aside, there is a surprising lack of support for dungeon play in general given the name of the game, and absolutely nothing about long term dungeon exploration.)

Why does this matter? Because this DMG is clearly designed to be the onboarding product for new DMs, and as such its lessons are going to have a long term impact on the culture of play. The advice in the DMG, especially coupled with the structures and premises of the evergreen adventures new DMs are likely to run, establishes a D&D campaign as a television show with a series long narrative and "season" stories.

I am not saying that this is a bad structure for a campaign. It is a good structure, in fact. But it is not the only structure, and player driven sandbox exploration wherein "stories" emerge from play is a foundation, important and still excellent way to play the game. I am afraid that new GMs will not be exposed to that style of campaign and eventually it will mostly die out (in the same way that the megadungeon mostly died out in official D&D).

I am sure many of you will think I'm nitpicking, being negative or just plain wrong. If the latter, what in the 2024 DMG do you think advocates for and helps support the sandbox playstyle? With any explicit example, how will new DMs discover and produce sandbox campaigns?

Even if you agree with me: what would you add for DMs for sandbox play? How would you alter or add to the Adventure and Campaign chapters, or elsewhere?

ALSO: Let's agree to not center a discussion around the idea that experienced DMs can just ignore the advice and run a sandbox game. Of course they can, but that isn't the point. This is about new DMs.

I haven't read through all the DMG, but given the tone of 5.5 and the obvious focus on purchasable adventures from WotC (the main point of backwards compatibility I believe), I expect you're right about this. I find it very disappointing, since sandbox emergent story play is personally my preferred style and I hate to think of new DMs not being exposed to it in the latest iteration of the game from which I learned about it. It is, I think, more efficient financially to focus on the big adventure path products, which are also easier to run (I freely admit doing sandbox "right" IME takes real effort). So I understand WotC's reasoning here. But to not mention it at all in the DMG is disheartening.

As far as what I would add: every game in Kevin Crawford's ...Without Number series includes an excellent essay explaining and in support of sandbox play, so I would start with something like that. I would additionally release a product (sooner rather than later) that discusses and focuses around the worldbuilding largely downplayed in the 5.5 DMG, including how that supports sandbox play and also including what mechanical changes to the game might facilitate that playstyle. The missing monster creation rules would be a good fit for this proposed product.

Please note that I am very much trying to be fair to WotC and to fans of its current offering here. These suggestions are just what I consider to be improvements to their game that would expose new DMs to what I believe to be a very fun playstyle, one worth preserving for new entrants into our amazing hobby.