Level Up (A5E) Deadlier combat

[Giauz]

@Imaculata : So, simplifying the two types of HP system... Perhaps there is one type of HP like basic 5e. The difference is a player uses their Constitution Modifier to determine how many pairs of d% and d10 they have in their HP pool. In addition, (AC×Con Score) is added to the total HP.

At the start of combat players roll their d%s and d10s to get HP=(nd%+nd10 at advantage)+(AC×Con Score). The players with the higher HP get their turns before players with lower HP (roll d20 for tie-breakers, higher results going first).

Attacking involves the standard dice rolls, but instead of d20 to hit, the player rolls a d% and d10. Damage dice + (d%+d10)= HP damage dealt. If HP damage dealt = 100, a chronic or permanent penalty to the target is also applied. If the HP damage dealt exceeds 100 then target loses no HP. Instead, thin air, scenery, a nearby ally/enemy, etc receives the difference of the damage - 100. However, scenery can fall and hit the original target if they are unlucky as one example of how the target could still receive damage from a missed attack.

I am kind of tired, but I hope I was thorough and that this is simpler. I don't perceive too many changes to how damage dealing and healing are handled. This also gets rid of the 5MWD for HP healing. I just really like the idea of using d% & d10 in generating HP.

 

[Imaculata]

In the videogame Left 4 Dead, each player can only be revived a limited number of times. After that, the next time you are downed, you are instantly killed. Something similar could work for 5E.

 

[clearstream]

One thing that each DM probably wants to decide, on vague terms at least, is a rough idea of expected lethality in your game both short-term and long-term.

Short-term: out of a starting party of x, where x is the usual number of characters (PC and NPC both) in the party, (1) how many do you expect will die in the first adventure? (or the first ten sessions if you're running either non-episodic or the campaign is a single great big adventure) This gives you an idea of how much character turnover to expect, particularly in the early days.

Long-term: out of a starting party of x, as above, (2) how many do you expect to finish the campaign and of those, (3) how many will have died and been revived at least once?

Once you've determined this, it's not a huge amount of work to dial things up or down to suit.

For me the answers are about (1) - 25-50%; (2) maybe one; (3) all.

I believe being intentional about lethality is a helpful tool for a DM. It is not so much that one can say what the chance of death per encounter should be, but more - as you describe - that one can be mindful of overall death rates.

I tracked (in my campaigns, and against anecdotes from other DMs) and then calibrated toward party+level characters being needed to have party-characters survive to that level. With a 50% revival rate (i.e. only half of deaths turn out to be permanent). Note that in my campaign, replacement characters are generated at the bottom of the level below that of the lowest levelled survivor.

For example, for a party of 4 in a campaign that will cap out at level 12, up to 16 characters will need to be generated. A dozen will die permanently, and there will be about the same number of non-permanent deaths (i.e. revivals using raise dead or similar).

Part of what this is addressing is the matter of tolerance, and the feeling of danger. I find players will tolerate that degree of mortality, and it inspires a decent sense of danger. Tolerance no doubt varies per player as normalised by their group. By which I mean that Jill could be more okay about losing characters than Jack, and both their feelings on the matter are influenced by their group.

I think I run a fairly lethal campaign, against the average. A group might well prefer much lower lethality. I dislike the whack-a-mole gameplay of Healing Word. I'm not sure what the fix is. I quite like the suggestion (from a poster above) of counting a heal received when down as a passed death save. Or maybe one pass per die would feel fairer.

 

[Giauz]

@clearstream : Could you clarify that last sentence? It might be typoed.

 

[clearstream]

@clearstream : Could you clarify that last sentence? It might be typoed.

It was indeed! I was commenting on an earlier post that suggested counting heals when down not as restored HP, but as passed death saves.

So say I am at 0 and receive a Healing Word - that gives me one passed save - I suppose making me stable at 0 HP if it would be my third such. Looking again at that, possibly healing dice should be consumed, one at a time, to do that.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It might not be necessary, because while you are negative you are also making death saving throws. You die when those run out, as usual. Were you (or should you become) negative equal your HP max, you die per the normal rules anyway. So that's a hard floor.


I've never fully followed the - it's only fun if I can hit things - line of thought. When I play a character with healing, I find it fun to keep my party alive.

Sure, but the issue is that in the vast majority of circumstances, you will not fail three death saves before someone can apply the tiny amount of effort required to revive you. As for the instant death rule, by 3rd level or so the chance of anything doing enough damage at a crack to hit that hard floor is near nonexistent. These are my reasons for wanting deadlier combat.

 

[rules.mechanic]

How about needing to spend a HD, or take a level of exhaustion, to be allowed to make each Death Saving Throw? Makes it a finite resource. It's scary but not insta-kill, should make things exciting.

 

[Asisreo]

Simple modifiers to Death Saves that increase deadliness without turning it into a massacre:

+2 to Death Save DC if CR of creature that dealt damage is higher than character level.
+4 to Death Save DC if CR of creature that dealt damage is twice or greater than character level.
+2 to Death Save DC if damage dealt was a critical.

If we're modifying death saves, they could work like concentration checks where if it's larger than 20, the death save DC (maybe minus the remaining health before the takedown) is the damage divided by 2.

So, if you're a wizard that has 5 hp left and get hit with a 40damage attack, your death saves are (40-5)/2=17.5 (rounded to) 17.

 

[clearstream]

Sure, but the issue is that in the vast majority of circumstances, you will not fail three death saves before someone can apply the tiny amount of effort required to revive you. As for the instant death rule, by 3rd level or so the chance of anything doing enough damage at a crack to hit that hard floor is near nonexistent. These are my reasons for wanting deadlier combat.

What I've observed is that Healing Word is the primary reason 5e combats are not considerably more lethal. Especially in tiers 1 and 2. One cast effectively grants three death saving throw successes plus a few HP on top. It might also be that scaling HP less by level would make a difference in tiers 2 and 3. The rest rules also play a part.

 

[Lanefan]

I don't think these ideas will work, broadly speaking, because they fall under the same trap that hinders other "gritty" suggestion: They are solely and exclusively negatives for the players.

That's the flippin' point!!!

5e as designed is too easy on the characters, and thus the players. The purpose of this whole discussion is to turn this around.

If the players don't like it, tough.

One critical factor is turn order. If no enemy can act between the time the party member falls and the person who can heal him can act, then it's kinda pointless. Legendary actions are great for pounding on death saves. Is there a way to make combat move more like that even without a legendary monster enemy?

Rerolling initiative every round might solve a bit of this. And sometimes yes, sheer luck would have it that the healer is right there ready to go when the fighter drops at his feet.

And what about death saves without needing to drop to 0 HP? (A poison that can be applied to a bloodied character?) Or at least, unconsciousness, which is nearly as good.

Good. Could be applied to a bunch of other effects as well. Like it.

I had an idea for a sap weapon that does 'virtual' damage. That is, the physical damage is still the standard 1d4 of a club, but it would do 2x-3x that damage to determine whether it knocked a person unconscious.

For example, Str 14 thug hits your level 1 fighter (12 HP) on the back of the head with a sap. He rolls a 3, for 5 total damage. You take 5 real damage, but 15 'knockout' damage. Since 15 damage is enough to drop you to 0 HP, you're out, even though you're then lying unconscious with 7 HP left.

Another good one. I might just even swipe this for my game.

Now what happens when your cleric comes along and heals you? Well, you're still unconscious, until someone slaps you awake. The healing doesn't make you "not dead", and thus able to resume fighting.

If the Cleric's paying attention and realizes you're merely knocked out she could slap you awake without curing you, I'd think - which works fine too. The point is she still has to be within reach of you (and thus perhaps at risk) and can't do it at range.