D&D (2024) D&D 2024 Rules Oddities (Kibbles’ Collected Complaints)

[mellored]

This sort of thing is tricky to look up, but another example would be the new Conjure Elemental (not conjure minor elemental, as that one has entirely different things going on!); the Conjure Spells are complete redesigned.

Conjure elemental isn't quite double dip. It's more like 1.5x dip. Since you can't be restricted twice, and does nothing on a miss.
It's also limited to 1 creature.

Seems like it might be intended that way.

 

[pukunui]

@KibblesTasty Thanks for chiming in!

Would you be able to clarify two of the issues for me please?

First, what exactly is the issue with being able to cast Hallow via Divine Intervention?

Second, how does the math break down when combining Scorching Ray with Conjure Minor Elementals?

 

[DrJawaPhD]

@KibblesTasty Thanks for chiming in!

Would you be able to clarify two of the issues for me please?

First, what exactly is the issue with being able to cast Hallow via Divine Intervention?

Second, how does the math break down when combining Scorching Ray with Conjure Minor Elementals?

The wording of Divine Intervention makes it sound like maybe you can cast a spell with a 24 hour cast time (e.g. Hallow) with a single Action. I'm pretty sure though that the wording of Magic Attack supersedes to make it take the entire 24 hour cast time

CME scales as +2d8 damage per attack per level that you upcast it. So a 9th level CME adds 12d8 per attack (or some big number I forget). So each ray in a Scorching Ray adds 12d8 damage, and you get many rays per cast.

 

[pukunui]

The wording of Divine Intervention makes it sound like maybe you can cast a spell with a 24 hour cast time (e.g. Hallow) with a single Action. I'm pretty sure though that the wording of Magic Attack supersedes to make it take the entire 24 hour cast time

CME scales as +2d8 damage per attack per level that you upcast it. So a 9th level CME adds 12d8 per attack (or some big number I forget). So each ray in a Scorching Ray adds 12d8 damage, and you get many rays per cast.

Thanks. What is the relation between CME and Scorching Ray?

 

[KibblesTasty]

@KibblesTasty Thanks for chiming in!

Would you be able to clarify two of the issues for me please?

First, what exactly is the issue with being able to cast Hallow via Divine Intervention?

The issue comes down to a lack of clarity around the Divine Intervention and the Magic Action.

Hallow has a 24 hour casting time, and is definitely not intended to be cast as an action. It can do wild things like give all creatures of a creature type of your choice Vulnerability to damage type you choose (with no save!) and that's just one of its many effects. This is normally limited by that you cannot cast it combat, obviously.

The issue is with Divine Invention, it says "As a Magic action, choose any Cleric spell of level 5 or lower that doesn't require a Reaction to cast"; this obviously would include Hallow, which takes 24 hours to cast, not a reaction.

The Magic action itself says "If you cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 minute or longer you must take the Magic action on each turn of that", you have to keep taking the action to complete it, but the Divine Invention spell continues "As part of that same action, you cast that spell without expending a spell slot or needing Material components"

I think that it doesn't work, but if doesn't work there are some other oddities. Like Pact of the Chain says "You learn the Find Familiar spell and can cast it as a Magic action..." but being able to 'cast it as a Magic action' doesn't do anything if that wording doesn't mean "as an action" and means "as the normal casting of a spell". Ultimately its just confusing wording, because anyone that just reads Divine Intervention or Pact of the Chain will definitely think those are letting you cast it as an action, because calling something that's not an action an action is confusing!

Second, how does the math break down when combining Scorching Ray with Conjure Minor Elementals?

It's just a matter of scaling. Conjure Minor Elementals for some reason scales by 2d8 per spell level when upcast, and applies with each attack you make (including spell attacks). Scorching Ray scales to make more attacks. So, imagine a basic combo of those spells is 3 × (2d6 + 2d8), but up casting them both by 1 level is now 4 × (2d6 + 4d8). That's a very exponential scaling.

The main reason its not a bigger problem is that Conjure Minor Elementals is already a high level spell, but its worth pointing out because its a lot more damage than anything else that existed previously (getting up over 900 damage by tier 4 if I remember correctly without redoing the math, though obviously they wouldn't all hit).

You can combo it with a lot of things, not just scorching ray, that's just the most effective one.

 

[DrJawaPhD]

I think that it doesn't work, but if doesn't work there are some other oddities. Like Pact of the Chain says "You learn the Find Familiar spell and can cast it as a Magic action..." but being able to 'cast it as a Magic action' doesn't do anything if that wording doesn't mean "as an action" and means "as the normal casting of a spell". Ultimately its just confusing wording, because anyone that just reads Divine Intervention or Pact of the Chain will definitely think those are letting you cast it as an action, because calling something that's not an action an action is confusing!

I think Pact of the Chain is the confusing wording, in that it looks like they changed it but actually didn't.

Previous wording was that you could cast it as a ritual, which would take 1 hour and not use a spell slot. New wording is that can cast it as a Magic Action without a spell slot - which still takes 1 hour and doesn't use a spell slot, but I guess doesn't cause a new player to need to go look up what a Ritual is.

 

[KibblesTasty]

I think Pact of the Chain is the confusing wording, in that it looks like they changed it but actually didn't.

Previous wording was that you could cast it as a ritual, which would take 1 hour and not use a spell slot. New wording is that can cast it as a Magic Action without a spell slot - which still takes 1 hour and doesn't use a spell slot, but I guess doesn't cause a new player to need to go look up what a Ritual is.

I agree, but I think there is two problems there. The first is that they don't need to say 'as a Magic Action' at all, since they could just say 'you learn the Find Familiar spell and cast it without expending a spell slot' since that would do the exact same thing (if you aren't modifying the spell casting time by casting it as a magic action). They don't put 'as a Magic Action' on all spells you can cast without a spell slot; for example a Star Druid (just the first one in front of me) "and you cast Guiding Bolt without expending a spell slot[...]" without saying as a Magic Action (because of course they don't, that wouldn't mean anything).

This would lead any player just reading the feature to think that "as Magic Action" means "as an action" because it is otherwise not doing anything that sentence, is not just a uniform part of the text. Its to the point where I suspect the person writing the feature for Pact of the Chain or Wild Companion thought it meant as an action (though obviously I'm speculating about intentions and motives there, have no way of knowing!).

Ultimately its not a major issue, but its one where the designers will probably need to clarify the RAI, and I think merits flagging if only by the number of rules savvy people I've seen saying "you can cast Hallow as an action"; if it confused them, it definitely will confuse a lot of people just reading it.

 

[mellored]

(getting up over 900 damage by tier 4 if I remember correctly without redoing the math, though obviously they wouldn't all hit).

12d8+2d6 = 61 damage per ray
* 9 rays = 549

Over 2 turns, spending your top 2 spell slots, to a single target, assuming you don't lose concentration, and are within 15' of the target.

 

[KibblesTasty]

12d8+2d6 = 61 damage per ray
* 9 rays = 549

Over 2 turns, spending your top 2 spell slots, to a single target, assuming you don't lose concentration, and are within 15' of the target.

Looking it up briefly the 900 number I had in mind came from a post calculating the total damage they could do with in a turn with it, not just the Scorching Ray. It is definitely a somewhat silly build; there's a lot of little optimizations in D&D 2024 that can get quite out of hand!

To be clear though, I don't think this is the biggest problem, and I don't really think it matters much exactly what it totals once we've sailed passed 200-300 damage. But as it is the highest damage in the game and probably not intended (though I cannot read their minds!), seems worth mentioning.

Personally, I think things like Giant Insect, Summon Undead, Conjure Fey with their Legendary Resistance bypassing effects are a bigger problem for me (and how I would have to adapt how I play to account for them if I were to allow them) as they come online earlier. Or even Armor of Agathys, being a bonus action and combining with other sources of temporary hit points like Polymorph (which can be >100 temporary hit points easily)!

I'm just disappointed that I think there's easily more problematic spells in D&D 2024 than there was in 5e 2014, as that was the biggest thing I was hoping to see fixed. My view is that a decent chunk of the problems at high levels come from a few spells, so to see the roster of 'problem spells' (for me, anyway!) grow and not shrink bums me out, though definitely think that's a subjective opinion!

 

[FarBeyondC]

12d8+2d6 = 61 damage per ray
* 9 rays = 549

Over 2 turns, spending your top 2 spell slots, to a single target, assuming you don't lose concentration, and are within 15' of the target.

There's so many ways to make Conjure Minor Elemental -> multiple attacks happen on just a single turn that it's just sad.