D&D 5E Cost of Attending Wizard School
- Thread starter BlivetWidget
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BlivetWidget
Explorer
Nope.
Salthorae
Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
This is great! I love it and am stealing it for my campaigns
The students supplementing their tuition costs by earning coin with their magic in the attached village, etc has a very Kingkiller Chronicle feel to me.
Also, so much THIS
LOL, plus their rooms and food are much better because nothing spells B-A-R-D like "Luxury"
Salthorae
Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
@BlivetWidget I looked back a bit more at the "Course work" picture you posted.
I love it, my only real question/thought is about Arcane recovery.
I feel like thematically since Arcane Recovery is one of the defining features of a 1st level Wizard, that it should be part of the last "Thesis" level classes.
The last class that has a pre-req of everything else, kind of looks/feels like busywork after you've already gotten all our class features and spells and cantrips. The only thing you get out of it is a couple of skills and some equipment pieces.
If you're open to suggestions on it, I would swap the Equipment: scholar's pack into the Advanced Scripting/Cipher work and Equipment: Explorer's pack into Elective #1 or #2 just for flavor since it's pretty basic.
I would split up the skills gained in the thesis. So, choose One from the list in the Thesis class and put one in the Advanced Scripting/Cipher class.
Then I'd put Arcane Recovery in the thesis class as the "capstone" of the wizard training they give you.
Headmaster Pwent - "You can cast spells and rituals and cantrips, and scribe and all that fun stuff, but until you have passed the Mental Bulwark coursework, you don't have the mental fortitude to refresh your mind for more arcane energies, and that is what makes a wizard a wizard and not just some NPC hedge-magician"
I love it, my only real question/thought is about Arcane recovery.
I feel like thematically since Arcane Recovery is one of the defining features of a 1st level Wizard, that it should be part of the last "Thesis" level classes.
The last class that has a pre-req of everything else, kind of looks/feels like busywork after you've already gotten all our class features and spells and cantrips. The only thing you get out of it is a couple of skills and some equipment pieces.
If you're open to suggestions on it, I would swap the Equipment: scholar's pack into the Advanced Scripting/Cipher work and Equipment: Explorer's pack into Elective #1 or #2 just for flavor since it's pretty basic.
I would split up the skills gained in the thesis. So, choose One from the list in the Thesis class and put one in the Advanced Scripting/Cipher class.
Then I'd put Arcane Recovery in the thesis class as the "capstone" of the wizard training they give you.
Headmaster Pwent - "You can cast spells and rituals and cantrips, and scribe and all that fun stuff, but until you have passed the Mental Bulwark coursework, you don't have the mental fortitude to refresh your mind for more arcane energies, and that is what makes a wizard a wizard and not just some NPC hedge-magician"
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BlivetWidget
Explorer
I don't know, if the school is run by a lich, it might need a steady supply of souls! Nobody knows what happens to the students who fail their tests...
@Salthorae If that works for you, I'd say go for it! I feel like rituals are more defining for wizards, but I can't just put everything at the end... Let me start by explaining why I put it where I did. Arcane Recovery is pretty clearly tied to the spellbook (you can't use the feature without it), so I was trying to tie it into the "turbo-calligraphy class" aka "Advanced Spellscripting and Cipher Systems." What I have as the Capstone class is a "semester abroad" putting your knowledge to use and earning your background feature and two proficiencies. I think the equipment, features, and proficiencies are in the right group, but I can see how the final course might seem a bit lackluster since they are all non-magic features. Let me think on it a bit, because I think you're right about that part. Maybe the "semester abroad" should be somewhere in the middle.
@Yaarel got me thinking about higher wizard levels. This is another area where DnD has a sort of split personality. On the one hand they want magic to be rare to the point that it doesn't totally change the medieval Europe ambiance, but on the other hand they make character progression is so fast that there should be high-level magic users everywhere. To be honest I'm still sort of vacillating on what feels light.
I suppose it could be interesting to shorten the time to Level 1 a bit (6 semesters instead of years, so 3 years) and target a 30-years-to-apex career, filling in the other levels using the adventuring days to level progression from the PHB and DMG (summarized in my post here) as a multiplier. Still feels like serious business. And all the powerful wizards are old, so 30 years seems reasonable.
| wizard level | avg months to reach | avg years to reach | avg total years to reach |
| 1 | 36.0 | 3.0 | 3.0 |
| 2 | 3.8 | 0.3 | 3.3 |
| 3 | 3.8 | 0.3 | 3.6 |
| 4 | 6.6 | 0.5 | 4.2 |
| 5 | 9.7 | 0.8 | 5.0 |
| 6 | 10.3 | 0.9 | 5.8 |
| 7 | 12.6 | 1.0 | 6.9 |
| 8 | 15.5 | 1.3 | 8.2 |
| 9 | 17.2 | 1.4 | 9.6 |
| 10 | 18.3 | 1.5 | 11.1 |
| 11 | 20.2 | 1.7 | 12.8 |
| 12 | 18.5 | 1.5 | 14.4 |
| 13 | 22.4 | 1.9 | 16.2 |
| 14 | 19.9 | 1.7 | 17.9 |
| 15 | 23.4 | 1.9 | 19.8 |
| 16 | 21.2 | 1.8 | 21.6 |
| 17 | 23.2 | 1.9 | 23.5 |
| 18 | 21.3 | 1.8 | 25.3 |
| 19 | 22.7 | 1.9 | 27.2 |
| 20 | 24.0 | 2.0 | 29.2 |
Using Carl Sagan as an exemplar of a modern, famous academic, this actually tracks his life fairly well if we key off the Arcane Tradition levels (note these year sums are all +/- half a year, as I don't know and didn't bother to look up the accompanying months). Starting from high school diploma:
-bachelor's after 4 years (my level 2: 3.3 years)
-master's after 5 (my level 6: 5.8years)
-PhD after 9 years (my level 10: 11.1 years)
-Full professorship after 19 years (my level 14: 17.9 years)
-Humanist of the Year Award after 30 years (my level 20: 29.2 years)
Salthorae
Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
Yeah, it could just I "feel" that the end should have magical features and I just latched onto Arcane Recovery.
I still think Arcane Recovery feels "right" after the Mental Bulwark portion of gaining Int/Wis save proficiencies. Something about the only class that gets those two saves and the only class to start the game with this kind of recovery feel right to me. But, you're right that it also lines up with the spellbook stuff.
Maybe the ritual casting from your spellbook could be the final portion if you see that as defining wizard. The ability to pull your spell notes rather than prepared castings into a protracted ritual seems like advanced stuff. Maybe Ritual casting 1 (prepared spells like other classes get) and Ritual casting 2 (from the spellbook) and have them split up?
As to the split personality, I've always seen that as NPC vs. PC. In my games most people running around are NOT PC classes. In previous editions they were NPC classes. 5e did away with that concept, but I just run with the fluff most of the time.
Regardless of edition, I've always seen NPCs as careful and deliberate in their advancement. So, they learn slowly and advance slowly over decades and years.
Most wizards (especially those who paid 1000's of gp to train at an academy) aren't going to risk their necks in tombs or on the road. They are going to slowly hone their craft and hire adventurers to get reagents and such for them.
PC wizards, on the other hand, have something pushing them out into the danger. So they practice and use their skills FAR more than other wizards, so they advance faster. Practice makes perfect after all right?
Now, if you feel wonky about them developing their school features quickly without training, you could put some downtime "advanced study/doctoral/post doctoral" type courses they could do between adventures to gain those features. OR they could have studied the theory of "xyz" and it finally clicked for them as they thought about it again once they'd slain that demon.
Necessity is the Mother of Invention as well, maybe they just independently come up with the subclass feature on their own after adventuring and pushing the theory of their craft/school.
That's my thoughts on the "split personality". To me it boils down to the the split between NPC and PC.
BlivetWidget
Explorer
@Salthorae alright, I think you have put me on the right track. Let me know what you think of this arrangement.
There are a few things I really like about the new lesson plan. On further reflection, a wizard's ability to learn spells from sources outside of their class features is, to me, probably the most unique feature. Rituals are important because wizards ritual cast in a special way (no prep), but wizards aren't the only ritual casters, and anyone can learn ritual casting with a feat. But nobody else can study spells in the wild that they can then cast with their spell slots.
You also made me realize that the study abroad is just an extension of the skill electives, and this moves the 'any skill you want' learning there as well. This puts skill acquisition in the first semester of each year (or every odd year, if you prefer that it take longer). So that's a nice pattern. So is learning two spells every second semester (or every even year, if you prefer it take longer).
This also explains why all level 1 wizards have 6 spells. Because once you learn how to read the spells of other wizards, the whole academy is going to be trading notes. That's fine for other levels of wizard (there is no defined number of spells for a level 2 wizard, for instance - they have 6 + 2 + whatever they could find), but level 1 wizards have exactly 6 level 1 spells.
I moved the spell focus to the end, too. Prior to that, you only need a handful of mostly common material components, so I think it would be more fun to have a bit where those don't just get handwaved away.
Thanks for your critique, sometimes I need that to re-evaluate the options.
| Course | Results on Completion (equipment given at course start) | Prerequisites |
| Cantrip Foundations & Somatic Discipline | ~Equipment: (a) a quarterstaff or (b) a dagger ~Proficiency: daggers, darts, slings, quarterstaffs, and light crossbows ~Spells: one cantrip | None |
| Elective: Skill #1 | ~Proficiency: choose Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, or Religion | None |
| Spell Foundations | ~Equipment: Spellbook ~Feature: scribing known spells (including Replacing the Book) ~Feature: two level 1 spell slots ~Feature: preparing spells (wizard level + Intelligence modifier) ~Spells: two level 1 spells | Cantrip Foundations and Somatic Discipline |
| Elective: Tool/Language #1 | ~Proficiency (background): any one tool or language | None |
| Advanced Cantrips | ~Spells: add two cantrips (for a total of three) | Cantrip Foundations & Somatic Discipline |
| Elective: Skill #2 | ~Proficiency: choose Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, or Religion | None |
| Ritual Mastery | ~Feature: Ritual Casting ~Spells: add two level 1 spells (for a total of four) | Spell Foundations |
| Elective: Tool/Language #2 | ~Proficiency (background): any one tool or language | None |
| Elective: Skill #3 Student Sabbatical (2 units) | ~Equipment: (a) a scholar's pack or (b) an explorer's pack ~Equipment (background): one background equipment list ~Feature (background): one background feature ~Proficiency (background): any two skills | Elective: Skill #1 Elective: Skill #2 |
| Mental Bulwark | ~Proficiency: Intelligence and Wisdom saving throws | All other coursework |
| Capstone: Advanced Spellscripting, Cipher Systems, & Foci | ~Equipment: (a) a component pouch or (b) an arcane focus ~Feature: Spellcasting Focus ~Feature: Copying Spells (deciphering spells written by another wizard) ~Feature: Arcane Recovery ~Spells: add two level 1 spells (for a total of six) | All other coursework |
There are a few things I really like about the new lesson plan. On further reflection, a wizard's ability to learn spells from sources outside of their class features is, to me, probably the most unique feature. Rituals are important because wizards ritual cast in a special way (no prep), but wizards aren't the only ritual casters, and anyone can learn ritual casting with a feat. But nobody else can study spells in the wild that they can then cast with their spell slots.
You also made me realize that the study abroad is just an extension of the skill electives, and this moves the 'any skill you want' learning there as well. This puts skill acquisition in the first semester of each year (or every odd year, if you prefer that it take longer). So that's a nice pattern. So is learning two spells every second semester (or every even year, if you prefer it take longer).
This also explains why all level 1 wizards have 6 spells. Because once you learn how to read the spells of other wizards, the whole academy is going to be trading notes. That's fine for other levels of wizard (there is no defined number of spells for a level 2 wizard, for instance - they have 6 + 2 + whatever they could find), but level 1 wizards have exactly 6 level 1 spells.
I moved the spell focus to the end, too. Prior to that, you only need a handful of mostly common material components, so I think it would be more fun to have a bit where those don't just get handwaved away.
Thanks for your critique, sometimes I need that to re-evaluate the options.
Salthorae
Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
Happy to help. Glad my thoughts were useful for you.
As to the new structure, I like it!
I think you should put the whole thing together in a PDF with homebrewery or something and add this as a Resource here at EN World or heck even on DMs Guild!
Either way, codified as a whole document with the course schedule as a handout and such. it'd be cool and fun for others to find and use.
Yaarel
🇮🇱 🇺🇦 He-Mage
I like the concept of advancement by means of study (mainly NPCs), versus advancement by means of adventures (mainly PCs). The D&D tradition that player characters are exceptional individuals − extraordinary prodigies − feels useful here to explain the dichotomy. They can excel to obtain the next higher degree faster than most normally do. There are reallife 17 year olds with a Doctorate, for example.
The possible degrees are (with regard to a formal education or its informal equivalent):
• Elementary School
• Middle School
• High School
• Associates
• Bachelors
• Masters
• Doctorate
• Post-Doc Professorship/Research
• Tenured Professorship
• Awards and Recognitions from Peers (good call!)
Comparing to the D&D fantasy world, I doubt Sagan can be described as level 20. Certainly he is recognized by and influential to many millions of persons (in his case Humans). And his distinctive pronunciation of "billions and billions" is somewhat part of the English language. He epitomized his philosophical worldview as: "Science is more than a body of knowledge. It's a way of thinking, a way of skeptically interrogating the universe with a fine understanding of human fallibility." Altho he himself believed in the statistical likelihood of alien life elsewhere in the universe, he, to his credit, came to the conclusion that no alien life had visited Earth yet, after participating in US air force research with the available evidence pertaining to the question.
According National Geographic, his tv show Cosmos that popularized cosmological science "reached half a billion viewers in 60 nations, his fame reached another level. The book of the series spent more than 70 weeks on the bestseller list."
So, assuming his influence extends to include people who havent watched his show directly, perhaps his 500 million viewers translates to influence among, say arbitrarily, 1 to 3 billion persons.
1 billion = 10 ^ 9
3 billion ≈ 10 ^ 9.5
So, Sagan is roughly level 18 or 19. (Namely: level ≈ magnitude of influence x2.) Not too shabby! Sagan counts as belonging to the ‘Legendary’ leveling tier of the ‘Sage class’. Heh, but can he cast a Wish spell?
So, we have a decent methodology to understand the uppermost tier of a Wizard education system.
The lowermost tier is levels 1 to 4, the ‘apprentice’ levels. These are ‘students’, ‘novices’, ‘courtly pages’, ‘jacks’ (whence ‘jack of all trades’).
In the Harry Potter-verse, Harry Potter, Hermione Granger, and Ron Weasley are in the equivalent of High School students with levels in the apprenticeship leveling tier. In other words they havent yet obtained their High School diploma.
So, the question is, are all of the characters that are levels 1 to 4 still in High School, or its equivalent? Or are these extraordinary prodigies who are performing at levels higher than peers?
Because the D&D apprentice tier is so brief − each level is gained after 4 to 7 encounters. I am inclined to view all levels 1 to 4 as equivalent to a high school education.
A compromise might be possible. At level 3, several D&D classes choose their archetypes. This can represent the achievement (a degree or its equivalent). So, level 3 might be
Apprenticeship Tier
• Levels 1-2: in High School
• Levels 3-4: has a High School diploma (or its equivalent), now a laborer or in college
Professional Tier
• Levels 5-6: has an Associates degree (or equivalent), now skilled labor or still in college
• Levels 7-8: has a Bachelors degree (or equivalent), ‘educated’ professional or in grad school
The ‘masters’ degree is intended to identify a ‘master’ in the ‘master and apprentice’ education system. Thus Level 9 represents well any kind of ‘master’, including a guild ‘master’, a police ‘chief’, and so on. Someone who heads a local institution. Someone at level 9 impacts and influences about 30 thousand persons, directly and indirectly. There is significant contribution to a large community.
Master Tier
• Levels 9-10: has a Masters, management level, master gaining apprentices, etc
• Levels 11-12: has a Doctorate, prominent management, guildmaster, headmaster, police chief
After attaining a Doctorate, and after establishing oneself as a leader within the chosen field, the hero now pushes the studies to new heights, by inventing new applications or discovering new advancement in theoretical research. At level 13, a person impacts roughly 3 million persons. In a medievalesque context, this is the size of three nations or three mighty cities. There is now multinational influence, as people in other nations are aware of the hero. At this point, the hero might even be a leader of one of these nations or might cities, not only influencing but deciding the future of this nation or city − with regard to the heros areas of expertise. A Level 13 Wizard might be the advisor of a national leader and in charge of Wizards in the realm, or the Wizard oneself might be the national leader.
Levels 13 to 16 are the levels intended for focusing on founding new institutions, building new Wizard academies, heading prominent Wizard academies, ‘gaining henchmen’, ‘building fortresses’ and so on. This tier is when the game of power politics comes into its own, as player characters begin to decide the fates of entire nations.
Leadership Tier
• Levels 13-14: national advisor, tenured professorship at notable college, founder of new school
• Levels 15-16: leader of a medievalesque nation with regard to chosen endeavor
At level 17, the hero now influences roughly 300 million persons. This is the size of a modern superpower, such as the entire United States today. The person enters legendary status. At level 20, literally every single human on planet Earth today knows about this hero. In D&D terms, other worlds are becoming aware of this individual.
Legend Tier
• Levels 17-18, 19-20: player characters are now affecting the fates of an entire world
Later at Epic Tier, 20+, player characters are now CONTROLLING an entire world with regard to the chosen area of expertise, and becoming influential to many other worlds as well.
An NPC tends to be on ‘the track’ of advancing levels by years of study. By contrast, PC prodigies can advance precociously by means of reallife experiences while adventuring.
In other words, when Wizard PCs enter a new Wizard academy, that academy can test them and then accredit them with having already obtained the equivalence of the relevant educational degrees upto the appropriate Wizard level. Some PCs who arent even a member of an academy might receive an ‘honorary degree’ as a formal recognition of achievements.
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Salthorae
Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
Couple other thoughts.
- With this switch to 3 years over 6 in your plan, it cuts the cost down to about 3,723 gp for full tuition students or 1,533.5 for students who have the instructor salaray waived for whatever reason.
- You should think about how to capture Variant Humans with the Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat in this.
- Some sort of "honors" program or something that can be extra work, but results in +2 cantrips and a "signature" 1st level spell they can use daily without a slot or a preparation.
- I smell "honors thesis" for the 1st level spell
- I smell "honors thesis" for the 1st level spell
- Some sort of "honors" program or something that can be extra work, but results in +2 cantrips and a "signature" 1st level spell they can use daily without a slot or a preparation.
Maybe instead of Honors program/thesis it could be more like National Honors Society or Goldenkey or something like that. Supposedly merit-based, but anyone can get in if they know the right people and they pump you for dues and such, so extra tuition.
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