Converting First Edition Monsters

[freyar]

My proposal allows the minions to control undead, but I think it works better with the pooled HD (since the master should be able to control how many undead HD it has remaining to subjugate). The real difference is whether the minions can do the "initial subjugation." I think we could just allow the master to subjugate undead within range of the minions.


I'm just not sure that 3e balance makes sense with the large numbers of this adventure; I think that section of the adventure would really have to be rewritten to work right. But we could cut the numbers in half, so Y=6 for the master + 3 per minion. I do like adding some amount per minion, since then killing a minion will cause some of the subjugated undead to break loose.

 

[Cleon]

My proposal allows the minions to control undead, but I think it works better with the pooled HD (since the master should be able to control how many undead HD it has remaining to subjugate). The real difference is whether the minions can do the "initial subjugation." I think we could just allow the master to subjugate undead within range of the minions.

So, you think the Master should be the only one who can make rebuke undead rolls, but it can do so through one of its minions? Hmm, I'd rather the minions be able to make rebuke actions of their own.

I'm just not sure that 3e balance makes sense with the large numbers of this adventure; I think that section of the adventure would really have to be rewritten to work right. But we could cut the numbers in half, so Y=6 for the master + 3 per minion. I do like adding some amount per minion, since then killing a minion will cause some of the subjugated undead to break loose.

Yes, I was thinking we'd be better off cutting the numbers from the original. We could always handwave it as the tomb was under some special unhallow effect that boosted the Bone Tyrants' capacity.

 

[freyar]

I can see the argument that the minions should be able to do the rebuking themselves, but there are two mechanical issues that make that more complicated. (1) The effective cleric level will be different, which may have some issues when it comes to bolstering against or dispelling turning. (2) With a single pool of commanded undead, it makes the most sense that the master controls which undead to put into the pool.


Did you like my suggested multipliers, or do you prefer to go lower?

 

[Cleon]

I can see the argument that the minions should be able to do the rebuking themselves, but there are two mechanical issues that make that more complicated. (1) The effective cleric level will be different, which may have some issues when it comes to bolstering against or dispelling turning. (2) With a single pool of commanded undead, it makes the most sense that the master controls which undead to put into the pool.

Well the effective cleric does not need to be different, we can just let minions substitute the master's rebuking level and Bob's your undead tyrant.

Did you like my suggested multipliers, or do you prefer to go lower?

6 plus 3 per minion works for me.

 

[freyar]

If you make the effective cleric level the same, then why not just have the minions channel the subjugation power of the masters?

Anyway, I don't want to go on about this for too long, but I'd like to keep the ability as simple as possible.

 

[Cleon]

If you make the effective cleric level the same, then why not just have the minions channel the subjugation power of the masters?

That's basically what I'm proposing, 'though I want to be clear I don't want the Master to have to spend any actions for a minion to make a Subjugation check.

Anyway, I don't want to go on about this for too long, but I'd like to keep the ability as simple as possible.

That sounds a bit over-optimistic, but let's see what we can do.

Subjugate Undead (Su): A bone tyrant can subjugate vast numbers of undead. This ability allows the bone tyrant to rebuke, command, dispel or bolster undead as if it were an 11th level evil cleric, with the following additional rules:

• A bone tyrant can use this power an unlimited number of times a day.
• A bone tyrant master and all its minions use the same cleric level for their Subjugate Undead checks. If the bone tyrant master gains levels in a class with the rebuke undead ability, those levels stack with the effective cleric level of all the bone tyrants. Add the Hit Dice limit of undead it can command using rebuke undead to the Hit Dice limit of its Subjugate Undead ability (see below).
• A bone tyrant can command any number of undead whose Hit Dice are less than half their effective cleric level, provided the total Hit Dice of said undead does not exceed the effective cleric level multiplied by 6 for the master plus 3 for each minion. This Hit Dice limit is a pool shared between the master and all its minions, all of whom can command the subjugated undead. The bone tyrant master's orders take priority over its minions. To create a clear chain-of-command, a master often appoints "commanding officers" by ordering subjugated undead to only accept commands from a particular bone tyrant minion.
  A full court of bone tyrants with 1 master and 6 minions can thus Subjugate 24 HD of undead per level; for a total of 264 HD with an effective cleric level of 11.
• The bone tyrant master (but not the minions) can also command a single undead whose Hit Dice do not exceed its own. This undead's Hit Dice still count towards the Hit Dice total the bone tyrants can subjugate.

I'd be OK using the above for the Minions as well as the master, but if you prefer a trimmed down version we could go for.

Subjugate Undead (Su): A bone tyrant minion can rebuke, command, dispel or bolster undead as if it were an evil undead. It uses its master's effective cleric level to make Subjugate Undead checks, not its own, and the Hit Dice limit of undead it Subjugates are taken from a pool shared by the master and all its minions. See the bone tyrant master for full details.

 

[freyar]

Assuming we link the two entries, I'd prefer the shorter version. Except I think you mean "as if it were an evil cleric." I think I'd still prefer making the master do the subjugating through the minions, as I wouldn't want the minions "using up" the HD pool without the master's permission, but it's not that big a difference.

 

[Cleon]

Assuming we link the two entries, I'd prefer the shorter version. Except I think you mean "as if it were an evil cleric."

Come to think of it, I guess it ought to be "as if it was an evil cleric".

I think I'd still prefer making the master do the subjugating through the minions, as I wouldn't want the minions "using up" the HD pool without the master's permission, but it's not that big a difference.

I'm not sure the minions are even capable of acting independently from the master, let along without its permission. Aren't they effectively extensions of the master, who is in constant telepathic communication with all its minions?

What sort of additional text would you want to add for "making the master do the subjugating through the minions".

 

[freyar]

Nah, subjunctive mood and all that. "if it were" is the way to go.

Hmmm, I thought they were in telepathic contact but independent minds, certainly no less capable of acting independently than formians are. Anyway, I would write the abilities something like this:

Subjugate Undead (Su): A bone tyrant master can subjugate vast numbers of undead. This ability allows the bone tyrant to rebuke, command, dispel or bolster undead as if it were an 11th level evil cleric, with the following additional rules:

• A bone tyrant can use this power an unlimited number of times a day.
• If the bone tyrant master gains levels in a class with the rebuke undead ability, those levels stack with the effective cleric level of all the bone tyrants. Add the Hit Dice limit of undead it can command using rebuke undead to the Hit Dice limit of its Subjugate Undead ability (see below).
• A bone tyrant master can subjugate any number of undead whose Hit Dice are less than half their effective cleric level, provided the total Hit Dice of said undead does not exceed the effective cleric level multiplied by 6 for the master plus 3 for each minion. This Hit Dice limit is a pool shared between the master and all its minions, all of whom can command the subjugated undead. The bone tyrant master's orders take priority over its minions. To create a clear chain-of-command, a master often appoints "commanding officers" by ordering subjugated undead to only accept commands from a particular bone tyrant minion. A full court of bone tyrants with 1 master and 6 minions can thus Subjugate 24 HD of undead per level; for a total of 264 HD with an effective cleric level of 11.
• The bone tyrant master can also subjugate a single undead whose Hit Dice do not exceed its own. This undead's Hit Dice still count towards the Hit Dice total the bone tyrants can subjugate.
• The bone tyrant master can subjugate undead within range of its minions by means of its telepathic link to the minion.
  
  Subjugate Undead (Su): A bone tyrant minion can rebuke, command, dispel or bolster undead that have been subjugated by its master.

 

[Cleon]

Nah, subjunctive mood and all that. "if it were" is the way to go.

As you were.

Hmmm, I thought they were in telepathic contact but independent minds, certainly no less capable of acting independently than formians are. Anyway, I would write the abilities something like this:

Rereading the original text, it says "If the master is slain, any surviving minions are gated back to the Nine Hells". If they can survive their master's death they must have some kind of independent existence.

Their life-forces (or, rather, unlife-forces) must still be intricately entwined, since the death of a minion weakens the master and their combined undead-boosting aura.

Subjugate Undead (Su): A bone tyrant master can subjugate vast numbers of undead. This ability allows the bone tyrant to rebuke, command, dispel or bolster undead as if it were an 11th level evil cleric, with the following additional rules:

• A bone tyrant can use this power an unlimited number of times a day.
• If the bone tyrant master gains levels in a class with the rebuke undead ability, those levels stack with the effective cleric level of all the bone tyrants. Add the Hit Dice limit of undead it can command using rebuke undead to the Hit Dice limit of its Subjugate Undead ability (see below).
• A bone tyrant master can subjugate any number of undead whose Hit Dice are less than half their effective cleric level, provided the total Hit Dice of said undead does not exceed the effective cleric level multiplied by 6 for the master plus 3 for each minion. This Hit Dice limit is a pool shared between the master and all its minions, all of whom can command the subjugated undead. The bone tyrant master's orders take priority over its minions. To create a clear chain-of-command, a master often appoints "commanding officers" by ordering subjugated undead to only accept commands from a particular bone tyrant minion. A full court of bone tyrants with 1 master and 6 minions can thus Subjugate 24 HD of undead per level; for a total of 264 HD with an effective cleric level of 11.
• The bone tyrant master can also subjugate a single undead whose Hit Dice do not exceed its own. This undead's Hit Dice still count towards the Hit Dice total the bone tyrants can subjugate.
• The bone tyrant master can subjugate undead within range of its minions by means of its telepathic link to the minion.
  
  Subjugate Undead (Su): A bone tyrant minion can rebuke, command, dispel or bolster undead that have been subjugated by its master.

• 
  
  I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "have been subjugated by its master" but I have a feeling I don't care for it. Are you saying that the Minions can only affect undead that the Master has previously used command (control) undead on? The original text says "Control of undead can be done by the master itself or any of its minions", not that Minions can only boss around undead who have already been subjugated by the Master Bones.
  
  Furthermore, it says the Master "must remain in the area it was originally summoned to". So, if I'm reading you right, that'd mean the Minions would have to let an undead get close to the profane altar the Master was summoned to, wait for the Master to command it, then take over control.
  
  One of the reasons the Master even has Minions is so it can send them out to control undead outside the area the Master is restricted to.