D&D (2024) Check Out The New Dungeon Master's Guide's Greyhawk Map

Greyhawk is the 'sample setting' provided in the 2024 Dungeon Master's Guide, and it is illustrated with a massive hex map by the awesome Mike Schley.

 

[pemerton]

I actually bought the boxed set when it came out. Read it once and said "nope" and I've always ignored it afterwards.

You mean the Greyhawk Wars boxed set, and not From the Ashes?

It's a cardboard token wargame, isn't it? (I've never played it, never seen it, but have the two modules that lead up to it.)

 

[Nikosandros]

You mean the Greyhawk Wars boxed set, and not From the Ashes?

It's a cardboard token wargame, isn't it? (I've never played it, never seen it, but have the two modules that lead up to it.)

It's been a long time, I was conflating the things a bit. You're right. Wars is a wargame, while From the Ashes is the update to the setting. I was referring to the latter.

 

[pemerton]

It's been a long time, I was conflating the things a bit. You're right. Wars is a wargame, while From the Ashes is the update to the setting. I was referring to the latter.

Ah, well I do have, and have read (some of), From the Ashes. I've also got Iuz the Evil and The Marklands. (Which are FtA supplements.)

 

[haakon1]

Ah, well I do have, and have read (some of), From the Ashes. I've also got Iuz the Evil and The Marklands. (Which are FtA supplements.)

Yes, I have all that too. I’ve used Marklands for Furyondy, with substantial modifications, like no Flare Line.

I do have Wars in my now 589 CY campaigns, but not FtA’s Wars.

• Bissel was invaded but did not fall, in “The War of the Lanthorn” caused by PC’s doing the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth. Bissel won due to the huge standing army - Border Companies - mentioned in 576 CY sources. And PC actions. And support from Veluna because the Giant Troubles went differently.
• The Giant Troubles conquered Sterich, but not Geoff or the Yeomanry. Why? Because PC’s succeeded in G123D123Q1. Lolth is dead.
• Tenh is a quagmire - a 4 way war.
• Iuz did attack everyone. The Great Northern Crusade of Furyondy with Veluna, the Shield Lands, Highfolk, and the Vesve is a major war. Independently and sometimes in coordination, the Wolf Nomads, and survivors from the Rovers of the Barrens, Horned Society, and Bandit Kingdoms are all counterattacking as well.
• Hold of Sea Princes is nominally conquered by the Scarlet Brotherhood, but Westkeep is held by Keoland, Berghof never fell, and most of the interior has been captured by a slave revolt or Sea Princes deadenders.
• “Ivid’s War” went roughly as Living Greyhawk Gazetteer tells it, with the same results. My players weren’t there, so it doesn’t much matter.
• Definitely no peace of Greyhawk!

The end result is plenty of room for adventure and war, I think close to what Gygax intended.

 

[Gord the Rogue]

Yes, I have all that too. I’ve used Marklands for Furyondy, with substantial modifications, like no Flare Line.

I do have Wars in my now 589 CY campaigns, but not FtA’s Wars.

• Bissel was invaded but did not fall, in “The War of the Lanthorn” caused by PC’s doing the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth. Bissel won due to the huge standing army - Border Companies - mentioned in 576 CY sources. And PC actions. And support from Veluna because the Giant Troubles went differently.
• The Giant Troubles conquered Sterich, but not Geoff or the Yeomanry. Why? Because PC’s succeeded in G123D123Q1. Lolth is dead.
• Tenh is a quagmire - a 4 way war.
• Iuz did attack everyone. The Great Northern Crusade of Furyondy with Veluna, the Shield Lands, Highfolk, and the Vesve is a major war. Independently and sometimes in coordination, the Wolf Nomads, and survivors from the Rovers of the Barrens, Horned Society, and Bandit Kingdoms are all counterattacking as well.
• Hold of Sea Princes is nominally conquered by the Scarlet Brotherhood, but Westkeep is held by Keoland, Berghof never fell, and most of the interior has been captured by a slave revolt or Sea Princes deadenders.
• “Ivid’s War” went roughly as Living Greyhawk Gazetteer tells it, with the same results. My players weren’t there, so it doesn’t much matter.
• Definitely no peace of Greyhawk!

The end result is plenty of room for adventure and war, I think close to what Gygax intended.

What did Gygax intend? From what I understood, From the Ashes was a big FU to him after he was booted. I would be interested to know if he had such plans in the works before he left?

I Was running a lot of Greyhawk at the time and pretty much ignored From the Ashes. I was pressured to switch to the Forgotten Realms grey boxed set around that time anyhow.

That was a long time ago so the details might be a little fuzzy.

 

[dead]

That's an interesting question... Was there any Greyhawk metaplot penned by Gygax in Dragon magazine articles or planned for publication? I think he was going to do a Bandit Lands supplement or something but I could be mistaken.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

What did Gygax intend? From what I understood, From the Ashes was a big FU to him after he was booted. I would be interested to know if he had such plans in the works before he left?

This is complicated and up to interpretation.

Supposedly, at the time it was published Gary said things implying that Greyhawk now for those who game in it, that any advancement to the setting was under their control.

But nearly immediately Gary’s column in Dragon Magazine (titled From the Sorcerer’s Scroll) he was describing battles and army movements of forces in the setting, and setting up further conflict points. Undeniably advancing beyond the material as published.

Allegedly this was towards advancing development of an armies-related wargaming product that never saw production. Or was shelved in development. This was way back in the early years of Dragon magazine.

Many years later, Greyhawk Wars/From the Ashes essentially takes many of those conflicts described in From the Sorcerer’s Scroll, puts them into canon events, and then more or less takes the angle that the evil or chaos forces ended up winning all of them. Then added a few more to spread the vibe of “bad guys winning” across the whole subcontinent, and that those bad guys had a lot of extraplanar alliances/patrons that sent legions of demons and devils too. There probably isn’t a hex on the map that is safe, danger and threats are ubiquitous and stakes were substantially raised. One complaint was that Greyhawk was now far too dangerous as very high level encounters could be everywhere.

I can’t speak to any intent to be an insult to Gary. Though the Castle Greyhawk adventure would have a much higher claim towards an intentional insult.

 

[Parmandur]

This is complicated and up to interpretation.

Supposedly, at the time it was published Gary said things implying that Greyhawk now for those who game in it, that any advancement to the setting was under their control.

But nearly immediately Gary’s column in Dragon Magazine (titled From the Sorcerer’s Scroll) he was describing battles and army movements of forces in the setting, and setting up further conflict points. Undeniably advancing beyond the material as published.

Allegedly this was towards advancing development of an armies-related wargaming product that never saw production. Or was shelved in development. This was way back in the early years of Dragon magazine.

Many years later, Greyhawk Wars/From the Ashes essentially takes many of those conflicts described in From the Sorcerer’s Scroll, puts them into canon events, and then more or less takes the angle that the evil or chaos forces ended up winning all of them. Then added a few more to spread the vibe of “bad guys winning” across the whole subcontinent, and that those bad guys had a lot of extraplanar alliances/patrons that sent legions of demons and devils too. There probably isn’t a hex on the map that is safe, danger and threats are ubiquitous and stakes were substantially raised. One complaint was that Greyhawk was now far too dangerous as very high level encounters could be everywhere.

I can’t speak to any intent to be an insult to Gary. Though the Castle Greyhawk adventure would have a much higher claim towards an intentional insult.

I have heard folks praise Sargent's work with From the Ashes, he wasn't joking around at least.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I have heard folks praise Sargent's work with From the Ashes, he wasn't joking around at least.

Although Carl wrote one of the modules in adventure series that lead into Greyhawk Wars, Five Shall Be One, which was the first of the Blades of Corusk series, intended to be a trilogy. The third module was turned into Greyhawk Wars. My understanding was Carl was not involved with Greyhawk Wars.

My memory was that Carl took what was done in Greyhawk Wars by other TSR authors and compiled an update to the Flanaess from it, adding details. My memory was that he didn’t have much input into the direction of the setting that was done in Greyhawk Wars. He was hired for From the Ashes to get the Greyhawk Wars development work into usable DM material.

FWIW, I’m one of those super fans of From the Ashes and all Carl’s products of that era.

 

[haakon1]

What did Gygax intend?

What I mean is not my specific outcomes, but using some of the many inherent, brewing conflicts in Greyhawk to do what makes sense in our home campaign instance of Greyhawk.

I think he especially would have liked that the outcomes of Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, G123D123Q1, and TOEE by my players had big picture impacts on our instance of Greyhawk.

That these key adventures had no impact on the FtA setting is one of my biggest problems with it.