D&D 3E/3.5 Changes you'd like to see made to 3.5/4E?

[Christian Walker]

7) Get rid of that silly treasure worth by level chart in the DMG, or at least clearly state it is optional. Its a nice guideline for DMs to use if they want to have the standard magic level, but players take that silly thing as gospel, and get irate if they don't have X much GP worth of items by Y level.

cartman

If someone pulled that in my game I would kick them squaw in the nuts.

/cartman

What change would I like to see? Lots of new spells. Magic Missile is tired, tired, tired.

Also, get rid of cross class skill restrictions. Don't force characters to multi-class in order to be diverse.

 

[Zappo]

Many of these proposed changes definitely fit into 4e more than in 3.5e...

Anyway, I'd like something done about stunning. It's a bit too easy to do and a bit too incapacitating.

Edit: re spellcasting and multiclassing.

I think the problem here is that all of a wizard's power comes from spellcaster levels, while a fighter's power comes from HD, BAB and feats.

Spellcaster levels are atomic, but a fighter can multiclass with anything else and still get a bit of BAB, a maybe smaller HD, and at least his 3rd/6th/... level feats.

What I would do is separate a spellcaster's power in several parts: spellcaster levels, feats, skills, maybe have saves figure in there somehow. That way if you multiclass you are sure to have something to gain as a spellcaster too, just like fighters always improve their fighting abilities a bit when multiclassing.

 

[TiQuinn]

I really like the idea, but I think it needs a bit more work; I'd like some disincentive for the aspiring fireball-slinging munchkin to do something other than take a level of wizard then go Cleric the rest of the way.

The way I'd like to see such a system set up would make it pretty difficult for anyone to gain too much of an advantage from taking only one level in a class. A 1st level Wizard/14th level Cleric, for example, hopefully would find that their wizard spells are not as powerful as their cleric spells. A 5d6 fireball wouldn't really be unbalancing since they could also cast flamestrike.

 

[hong]

My changes for 4E:

1. Rework all linear progressions, such as attack and save bonuses, so that the game doesn't become unplayable past 20th level. The only reason the ELH exists, with its wonky "epic" progressions, is because of this issue.

2. Streamline high-level play to avoid the problem of the laundry-list of abilities, which causes slowdowns and general hassles. People forget that they have some obscure super power, or spend an hour figuring out which mind-bogglingly powerful ability they're going to use.

3. Change the way big monsters are represented using lots of HD. Too many things use HD as a gauge of power, including save DCs, skill points, feats, saves, and attack bonuses. Maybe a fixed increase in hit points, saves, attacks etc per size category would work better than just linear progressions. This is related to the problem 1) above.

4. A better-designed skill system. In terms of representing class powers, skills still tend to be the "everything else" bucket, ie, what's left when combat and spells are taken out. A lot of spells could easily be represented as giving bonuses to skills (invisibility: big bonus to Hide; charm person: big bonus to Diplomacy; silence: big bonus to Move Silently; suggestion: big bonus to bluff, etc). A less binary outcome would make sense for some skills, ie instead of success/failure, have complete success/partial success/partial failure/complete failure, or something similar. Opposed rolls also could do with some reworking; it seems too easy now for one side to blow away the other completely.

5. Change actions like sunder, disarm, strike object, grapple etc to incorporate the hit point mechanic. These actions at the moment bypass hit points, which has the potential to distort combats because hit points are a major way in which D&D represents combat skill.

 

[A'koss]

As I look down the thread I see many ideas I agree with and some on principle (if not execution). Most of my suggestions are more geared towards some mythical 4e, than 3.5e.

1. High Level Disparities. My greatest concern is with increasing disparities between Hit Points, Combat Ability, Saving Throws and Stats (which in itself is the root of many of these disparities) that was brought in with 3rd ed. Greater than 10th level play becomes increasingly problematic and especially so at very high and epic levels. IMO, the game requires some compression in these key areas to make it easier on DMs to design/run adventures at these levels (and in the end more fun for the players). I think hard decisions need to be made here that may not please the players, but in the end will make for a better, more balanced game.

2. Save or Die. As Monte Cook touched upon a while back, a single roll that decides the outcome of a battle (eg. Save or Die, Save or Nerf) is not much fun. Andy Collins's Epic Insight on turning Save or Die spells to damage is an excellent start.

3. Turning Undead. Turning could be improved to make it both better and easier to use. I agree with the poster who suggested that clerics should have some ability to turn evil outsiders.

4. Ease of Resurrection. Overall, I think if the game made it a little harder to die and a little harder to come back I would be much happier. There should be some non-exotic way to kill someone and have them stay dead.

5. Spell Saving Throws. Remove stat bonuses from DC Saves and severely limit how you can improve them. Gothmog has the right idea here, but you will also have to adjust Saving Throw progressions to accomodate.

6. Mental Stats. Right now there are no in-game rules or benefits for playing characters and beings who are very intelligent, very wise and to a lesser extent, charismatic. I've created my own rules for providing information to the very intelligent/wise to allow them to make better decisions but something like this should be incorporated into the core rules. Right now, concepts like "the wise fighter" can't be modelled in D&D.

7. Critical Hits. I like the resolution mechanic (roll within threat range + confirmation roll) but the damage is too great IMO at lower levels. Virtually every LL game I run I'm having to fudge rolls so that someone doesn't die from an errant crit. Have criticals scale with the skill of the attacker and start the damage off lower.

8. Multiclassed Spellcasters. As a poster already suggested, each class should have it's own spellcasting level modifier, perhaps even breaking it down between arcane and divine classes. A paladin for instance may may add 1 divine spellcasting level for every 2 paladin levels but only 1 arcane SL for every 3 paladin levels...

9. Armor. In my heart I'd like to see armor reduce damage and each class gain defense bonuses a la Modern d20. It is not easy to balance this however (just think of monsters with heavy-duty natural armor), but if the game were designed with that in mind, that would be ideal.

10. Automatic Weapon Proficiencies. These should be chucked. No one start out proficient in that many weapons. Those of you who think such proficiencies are easy (it's only sword, how hard can it be?) are woefully wrong.


Cheers,

A'koss.

 

[Dark Jezter]

Another small thing I'd like to see in 3.5e.

Hide, Move Silently, and Spot should be made class skills for the barbarian. If barbarians are living in the wilds, then they are familiar with hunting for food, which usually requires stealth in stalking their prey. They should also easily be able to spot things out of the ordinary.

 

[Liquid Snake]

Arcane Paladins?!

A paladin for instance may may add 1 divine spellcasting level for every 2 paladin levels but only 1 arcane SL for every 3 paladin levels...

A 14th level Fighter/1st level Wizard may only have a few spells, but his caster level would be higher.

What?! Why the heck would a paladin know anything about arcane spells? Why does a 14th Ftr/1st Wiz is a better spellcaster than a 2nd level Wizard? It makes absolutely no sense, like someone else mentioned: munchkin's paradise.

In another matter, I agree the Vancian magic system should be scraped off a mana/spell-point based system would be better.

 

[Steverooo]

There are so many... How can I list them all?

ALL classes receive one "Professional" Feat from a special, class-only list at first, fifth, tenth, fifteenth, and twentieth levels (just like the wizard does, now, but a different list for each class).

ALL classes have one or more Knowledge skills as class skills. Fighters get Knowledge (History) - as it states that it includes knowledge of battles - Clerics and Paladins Knowledge (Religion), Barbarians, Druids, and Rangers Knowledge (Nature), Bards, Sorcerers and Wizards all knowledge skills, etc.

ALL classes with two skill points get theirs doubled, and all the rest get an increase.

Clerics get more Domains as they rise in level, and special abilities related to them.

Druids have the ability to Speak with Animals at will. A better explanation of their weapon and armor restrictions is included in the class write-up.

Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins and Rangers receive Bluff and Intimidate as class skills.

Rangers get a total re-write (don't even get me started!) Balance and Knowledge (Geography), at least, are added as class skills. Their role in the party is clearly stated in the class write-up.

Monks get to choose their special abilities from a selected list.

Fighters get some other abilities besides just fighting.

Permanent Energy Level/Ability Drain is removed.

Magic items granting skill boosts are now limited to Level+3 Ranks, up to the stated maximum. Thus, a Ring of Jumping at first level grants +4, not +30. This makes the Rogue who has maxed Jump skill no longer invalidated.

Return to the system that +1/+2 weapons are made of steel/whatever, +3 are Meteoric Iron, +4 Mithril-alloyed Steel, +5 pure Mithril or Adamantite-alloyed steel, and pure adamantite are +6 (Epic level). Thus, those unmagical mithril chain shirts will be MUCH more expensive (Bilbo/Frodo's in The Hobbit/The Lord of the Rings was stated to be worth more than the entire Shire, and Gimli said that that was under-valuing it)!

Remove the rule that, in order to make a Spellcraft check, one must wait until after the spell has been cast! This makes no sense especially when counter-spelling!

Make the weapon and equipment weights more realistic. They do *NOT* weigh 25#! Even a solid metal handaxe doesn't weigh five pounds! That's more than a sword!

I'm sure there are many more...

 

[TiQuinn]

Re: Arcane Paladins?!

What?! Why the heck would a paladin know anything about arcane spells? Why does a 14th Ftr/1st Wiz is a better spellcaster than a 2nd level Wizard? It makes absolutely no sense, like someone else mentioned: munchkin's paradise.

First of all, part of the assumption here is that arcane and divine magic come from the same source, allowing one spell list. Cleric and Wizard spells etc. would be more like different schools of training than completely different types of magic. I think a 14th lvl Ftr/1st lvl Wiz should be a better spellcaster than a 2nd lvl Wiz because even though the character's focus is on combat, some part of his training and skills is focused on magic use as well. He may only be casting color spray or exp. retreat, but he's still using magic and gaining some power through experience. Look at it this way, a 14th lvl Wizard/1st lvl Ftr has a better BAB than a 2nd lvl Ftr. By your reasoning, why would he? He should only have the fighting ability of a 1st level Ftr. However if this were to be the case, multi-classed characters would be left behind in fighting ability. Part of the problem right now is that a 7th level Fighter/7th level Wizard is no match for a 14th level Wizard, despite the fact that they are both 14th level characters. Multi-classing currently ends up with a very inferior character. Just as with BAB advancement, there's no reason why spellcaster advancement couldn't rise through other classes as well.

 

[TiQuinn]

My changes for 4E:

Change the way big monsters are represented using lots of HD. Too many things use HD as a gauge of power, including save DCs, skill points, feats, saves, and attack bonuses. Maybe a fixed increase in hit points, saves, attacks etc per size category would work better than just linear progressions. This is related to the problem 1) above.

I remember looking through the ELH and being boggled by the ongoing escalation of hit points. And A'koss also pointed out, what epic level needs is compression. I don't know if the same ruleset even needs to apply to both levels 1-20 and epic level. They should probably have their own set of rules reflecting their own distinct issues.