Chain Shirt vs. Hide Armor
- Thread starter Maraxle
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reapersaurus
Explorer
OK, I'll bite.
I'll take this opportunity to rant about medium armor.
What is the point of most of it?
Unless you don't care much about speed or Dex bonuses, than light armor is better hands down in a straight-up comparison than medium armor.
Hide armor is a perfect example.
Other than it being a little bit cheaper than a Chain Shirt, it's the worst of the lot, and oh yeah - you are slowed now.
Is there any real soultion?
I'll take this opportunity to rant about medium armor.
What is the point of most of it?
Unless you don't care much about speed or Dex bonuses, than light armor is better hands down in a straight-up comparison than medium armor.
Hide armor is a perfect example.
Other than it being a little bit cheaper than a Chain Shirt, it's the worst of the lot, and oh yeah - you are slowed now.
Is there any real soultion?
Destil
Explorer
Some armors are just supposted to be better, or worse, than others. Just like weapons. It works that way as part of attempt to simulate reality. (or at least that was something I remember the designers mentioning before 3E came out, though it was also refering to weapon speeds being removed). Look at half vs. Full Plate. No contest. Why even have half plate? Well, it's primarly there to be complete. Handy until you can afford full, at low levels. Which, also, is a big advantage of Meidum Armor. (And Splint)
Meidum armor, in general, IS supposted to be worse than heavy. You need the meidum armor feet before you can take the heavy armor feet. More investment, more reward.
Meidum has it's place, though. Hide is made for Druids, pure and simple. If you haeva +3 or +2 dex bonus, and have the profiency to wear it, than chainmail or a brestplate a good option. Yes, it slows you down.
If you want mobility, don't wear anything above light. It's that simple. If you have enugh dex, you're not going to get hit as much, and will even fare better against touch attacks (and worse flat-footed or in other aquard situations). But if your Dextarity isn't 16+, you can do better point for AC with meidum. And you'll still run faster than someone in splint, banded, or plate. If you never have to run... well... you have have better luck than any of my adventures have ever had. Far.
If you want to blame anyone or rant... uhm... Oh, I know! Rant about Clerics!
*@&# clerics and their Heavy Armor Profiency. Why do they need it? It's like giving 'em martial weapons. Should start with meidum & take heavy if they want to spend the feat or multi-class. That'll get meidum armor used more.
Meidum armor, in general, IS supposted to be worse than heavy. You need the meidum armor feet before you can take the heavy armor feet. More investment, more reward.
Meidum has it's place, though. Hide is made for Druids, pure and simple. If you haeva +3 or +2 dex bonus, and have the profiency to wear it, than chainmail or a brestplate a good option. Yes, it slows you down.
If you want mobility, don't wear anything above light. It's that simple. If you have enugh dex, you're not going to get hit as much, and will even fare better against touch attacks (and worse flat-footed or in other aquard situations). But if your Dextarity isn't 16+, you can do better point for AC with meidum. And you'll still run faster than someone in splint, banded, or plate. If you never have to run... well... you have have better luck than any of my adventures have ever had. Far.
If you want to blame anyone or rant... uhm... Oh, I know! Rant about Clerics!
*@&# clerics and their Heavy Armor Profiency. Why do they need it? It's like giving 'em martial weapons. Should start with meidum & take heavy if they want to spend the feat or multi-class. That'll get meidum armor used more.
Last edited:
Kae'Yoss
First Post
Corlon said:
As was already said: some armor is better, some worse. Sometimes availability plays an important role: as a member of a savage tribe of humanoids, you may have no access to a nice chain chirt (or chain mail), so if you want good armor with high AC you use hide armor.
reapersaurus
Explorer
I don't buy this.Destil said:
At all.
The designers making an entire category of armor relatively useless (since there are better alternatives available at Light and Heavy) just for druids, and savage cultures that can't make/afford anything better, is a blatant oversight/mistake/hole in the rules IMO.
And comparing to weapons is apples and oranges.
There are tons of weapons to suit many character ideas, there are very few armors that are available, and bottom line, every single medium armor is worse "statistically" than a Chain Shirt.
Even Chainmail and Breastplate, the "better" medium armors, cost more, cut your max dex bonus almost in half, slap you with more than double the armor check penalty, worse spell failure chance, and most importantly, lower your speed 33%!!
Oh, and all for the benefit of +1 to your AC.
That is BY FAR the worst trade-off in the entire game when comparing cost/benefit tradeoffs.
Now someone will probably say it "could be worth it if that 1 AC saved your life". Please, save your brerath if going that far to justify an obvious screwup.
I've been wondering about how to fix this for awhile, and after seeing the armor table, i think the problem is that the designers didn't have much room to play with, because they gave light armors to much of a range (from +1 AC to +4).
Then they decided to make Heavy Armors range from +6 to +8.
They also screwed up because they didn't think of any other limitation to using Heavy Armor other than reducing their run from x4 to x3.
So logically, a way of fixing the "Medium Armor Problem" would be to either increase the range of AC's (upping both Medium and Heavy Armor AC benefits) or inventing some greater penalty to wearing Heavy Armor.
I'd suggest increasing the armor benefit of Medium & Heavy Armors if it was me.
Let's see..... by +2 across the board would be a good place to start.
Vaxalon
First Post
In my experience, breastplates are quite common when low-value attribute generation is used.
Sure, if everyone has a spare 16 to put in dex, you'll see chain shirt as the standard, but if you have a dex bonus of +2, or if a maximum move of 60' is just too little, a breastplate looks nice.
Sure, if everyone has a spare 16 to put in dex, you'll see chain shirt as the standard, but if you have a dex bonus of +2, or if a maximum move of 60' is just too little, a breastplate looks nice.
medium armor
I look at it this way....you can sleep in most medium armor and not wake up fatigued. the rules state that sleeping in armor with an armor check penalty of -5 or more leaves you fatigued the next morning. so while the party is attacked at night and those plate mail based characters are stuck fighting naked my character rolls out of bed in his scale mail or breastplate and remains protected. thus medium armors have thier place.
I look at it this way....you can sleep in most medium armor and not wake up fatigued. the rules state that sleeping in armor with an armor check penalty of -5 or more leaves you fatigued the next morning. so while the party is attacked at night and those plate mail based characters are stuck fighting naked my character rolls out of bed in his scale mail or breastplate and remains protected. thus medium armors have thier place.
Uller
Adventurer
What is the point of a large sack? I mean...a backpack has the same functionality AND has straps to make it easier to carry. I mean other than the fact that you care about cost, why would anyone ever buy a sack? 
I love questions that answer themselves: "Unless you don't care about speed or dex, why would you ever choose medium armor?"
Ugh....because you don't care about speed or dex and expense is an issue. Duh?
You have a Dwarf War1...he's got a 13 or lower dex. He fights mainly with a crossbow unless the enemy gets close and then he switches to a small sheild and short sword. In the tunnels of a mine, mobility is not usually an issue and unless he is fleeing, movement isn't an issue either (and what kind of self respecting dwarf is going to plan on fleeing?). Cost IS an issue. What kind of armor will you give him? Easy...chainmail.
Personally, I'd have liked to see medium armor have a bit less of an impact on speed than heavy armor, but I'm not sure how...but over all, I'd call it a minor nit rather than a "blatant hole" in the rules...
I love questions that answer themselves: "Unless you don't care about speed or dex, why would you ever choose medium armor?"
Ugh....because you don't care about speed or dex and expense is an issue. Duh?
You have a Dwarf War1...he's got a 13 or lower dex. He fights mainly with a crossbow unless the enemy gets close and then he switches to a small sheild and short sword. In the tunnels of a mine, mobility is not usually an issue and unless he is fleeing, movement isn't an issue either (and what kind of self respecting dwarf is going to plan on fleeing?). Cost IS an issue. What kind of armor will you give him? Easy...chainmail.
Personally, I'd have liked to see medium armor have a bit less of an impact on speed than heavy armor, but I'm not sure how...but over all, I'd call it a minor nit rather than a "blatant hole" in the rules...
sacks have tons of uses
first of all sacks rule. i mean what if you wanted to put 4 kobolds in a sack then use your now full sack to chop down a tree? or maybe you just wanted to use the sack as a weapon and kill more kobolds with a sack full of kobolds? who would want to ruin their perfectly good backpack but putting kobold goo on the inside. besides, its a real pain the empty out the back pack then cram those kobolds in there, thats why i carry a spare empty sack at all times in case i encounter kobolds. dont have to worry about spilling out the goodies in my backpack and can skip right to the fun part.
first of all sacks rule. i mean what if you wanted to put 4 kobolds in a sack then use your now full sack to chop down a tree? or maybe you just wanted to use the sack as a weapon and kill more kobolds with a sack full of kobolds? who would want to ruin their perfectly good backpack but putting kobold goo on the inside. besides, its a real pain the empty out the back pack then cram those kobolds in there, thats why i carry a spare empty sack at all times in case i encounter kobolds. dont have to worry about spilling out the goodies in my backpack and can skip right to the fun part.
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