Bonus spell slots from magic items: When do you lose them?

[Taren Seeker]

I've been looking at the whole bonus spell slot thing.

If you are a mage wearing a Headband of Intellect that gives you a bonus 3rd level spell, do you know what slot is the bonus one? Let's say you prep a fireball in that slot, then cast it, then remove the headband. Do you lose another of your prepared 3rd level spells, or does the one you just cast count as the bonus?

Further, although different, this touches on the Ring of Wizardry series. You have a ring of Wiz I that gives you 3 extra 1st lvl spells. You cast these 3 spells, then take off the ring. What happens? Do you lose still-filled slots or are the extra ones you just cast treated similarily to temp hit points, where they always go first?

Now look at how this would affect a Sorceror or Bard with a Cloak of Charisma.

I've checked through the DMG and PHB and there REALLY isn't much info on this. Does anyone have opinions and/or cites? I've even looked through ability drain and damage hoping for some direction, but no joy.

I'm of the opinion that you only lose the bonus slots, not anything separate from that, but I'd like some backup or solid refutation.

Thanks!

 

[melkoriii]

As I understand it, you get to pick what spells of that lvl you lose.

I cant point you to a referance tho.

 

[Hypersmurf]

As a DM, I require prepared casters to nominate which spells are prepared in the slots that come from the item, at time of preparation.

This means that spontaneous casters get slightly more benefit from enhancement items; I don't have a problem with that.

-Hyp.

 

[drnuncheon]

I've been looking at the whole bonus spell slot thing.

If you are a mage wearing a Headband of Intellect that gives you a bonus 3rd level spell, do you know what slot is the bonus one? Let's say you prep a fireball in that slot, then cast it, then remove the headband. Do you lose another of your prepared 3rd level spells, or does the one you just cast count as the bonus?

Further, although different, this touches on the Ring of Wizardry series. You have a ring of Wiz I that gives you 3 extra 1st lvl spells. You cast these 3 spells, then take off the ring. What happens? Do you lose still-filled slots or are the extra ones you just cast treated similarily to temp hit points, where they always go first?

Now look at how this would affect a Sorceror or Bard with a Cloak of Charisma.

I think the only way to be fair about it is to treat prepared and spontaneous casters in the same way: when the item is removed, the bonus slots go away, but the number of spells cast does not.

Thus, a wizard who took off his ring of wizardry after casting 3 spells would still have cast 3 spells that day, but his maximum just lowered to the point where he might not be able to cast any more.

I would probably choose the spells lost randomly.

J

 

[DreamChaser]

i agree

if it were at item that only granted bonus spells (like a ring of wizardry) I would consider it differetly; but for intelligence boosts and such, the wizard is acting as though she had a higher stat and thus more bonus spells. They would be part of her general pool and would be gained or lost as any others. I would treat it the same as ability score loss in which a random spell is lost. This whole idea does hurt prepared casters more than spontaneous but such is the way of things.

Now with a ring of wizardry. I would allow the wizard to assign which were "ring slots" and which were normal slots and so if he lost the ring (or the benefit of it due to a targeted dispel) only the spells in the ring slots would be lost.

Just my opinion. I don't have any rules backing for this.

DC

 

[melkoriii]

Miss post.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The rules are unclear. Every opinion is this thread (including this one) is simply conjecture on the matter.

I am going to be the radical and follow the rules to the letter: No spells are lost, but you still you always have the hard limit of how many spell you can cast per day.

This opens the somewhat bizarre possibility of having, say, two 3rd level spells prepped while only allowed to to cast one. (Yes, you can choose which one to cast when you need it.)

The upside is you have a huge simplification in bookkeeping whenever a spellcaster steps in and out of an Antimagic Field. (This is no joke. Do you want to stop play and have every spellcasting PC and NPC retally spells in the middle of combat...possibly multiple times. Do you want to be required to inform spellcasters whenever they step into an AMF?)

BTW, there is no rule that says you lose spells when your casting stat goes down although there is a random spell lost from energy drain damage.


If you are a mage wearing a Headband of Intellect that gives you a bonus 3rd level spell, do you know what slot is the bonus one? Let's say you prep a fireball in that slot, then cast it, then remove the headband. Do you lose another of your prepared 3rd level spells, or does the one you just cast count as the bonus?

You don't lose any spell. But you can't cast a spell if you spells of that level per day have been used up.

Further, although different, this touches on the Ring of Wizardry series. You have a ring of Wiz I that gives you 3 extra 1st lvl spells. You cast these 3 spells, then take off the ring. What happens? Do you lose still-filled slots or are the extra ones you just cast treated similarily to temp hit points, where they always go first?

Spells per day are spells per day. If you can't cast anymore spells of that level in a day, it doesn't matter what you have memorized.

 

[DreamChaser]

Ridley:
the problem with that idea (understanding of course that iwas intended to be a bit "out there") is that in 3e spells are not memorized they are prepared. The wizard uses the prep time to "mostly cast" the spells he wants to use and takes the energy from his daily allotment. This is why it is possible to leave slots empty and prepare them later. If you lose slots, you have to lose prepared spells.

DC

 

[dcollins]

As I understand it, you get to pick what spells of that lvl you lose.

Similarly, I'm guided by the rules for energy drain. From the SRD for energy drain:

If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.)

It does seem like the simplest option in cases like these (i.e., no new bookkeeping requirements).

 

[Taren Seeker]

So what a couple of you are saying is that if you get hit with an Int drain that costs you a bonus spell you'll lose a prepared spell slot regardless of what you've already cast?

That just seems like an overly harsh method to me. Stat drain and damage is bad enough.

Another tack: whether or not you've cast the spell in a bonus slot is irrelevant; the slot still exists, and a spell can be prepared in it the next day. If it exists, it can be lost. So if you combine this with the "choose your spell" rule from negative levels then you could choose to lose an empty slot. For the Sorceror, treat the bonus castings as if they're temp HP's, where they are expended first whenever a spell is cast of that level.

Ridley: Agreed on the conjecture, hopefully *insert oblig. hope 3.5 will fix this reference*. Your spells cast per day idea...I dunno, it doesn't feel right to me. Wizard's prepared spells are inextricably linked to casts per day. You're kind of smooshing Sorcerors and Wizards together.

And as you know, smooshed Sorcerors and Wizards are ugly

edit: "smush is not a word...smoosh is better.