BECMI/BX additional material

[DarthBeckett]

Hello,

I was considering adding a little material from other additions into a BECMI/BX game. In particular, I was considering spells such as Spiritual Weapon and Flamstrike, (two I consider very iconic Cleric Spells), but I was also curious if there were other similar options for something like this, and if anyone had already done this. A general Google search didn't really come up with anything.

I am considering making a Druid and Bard class for starter characters, so am open to spells from them as well. For example, one thing I am trying to balance is a way to allow Thieves to choose a bit more about what Theif Skills improve each level, similar to a small pool of points they can spend similar to 2E. Perhaps a Thief can trade out % points at a 2:1 level similar to starting Ability Scores?

Looking back at Spiritual Weapon and Flamstrike, I do not want to make the Cleric too good, meaning I don't want Flamestrike to overshadow Fireball, but to still be a worthwhile option. Similarly, Spiritual Weapon can be a semi-sub-par option, but might allow a party to hit something that can only be hit by magical weapons. So, for example in AD&D 1E, Spiritual Hammer <Weapon>(2nd) has the material component of an actual War Hammer, meaning it consumes that War Hammer with each casting for 1d4/1d6 Magic damage. Flames Strike (5th) calls down a pillar of fire that deals 6d8. Other editions make it a 10ft cube, alter the damage, or make it half "divine" damage, so that Fire Resistance does not apply to half of it.

I am considering making these options that a player can research, but honestly, I think they should be more along the lines of common spells that the average Cleric should just have. Thoughts? Ideas? Comments?

 

[Reynard]

As I understand it, Old School Essentials is effectively B/X, so any of the hundreds of supplements for that game should be compatible.

 

[DarthBeckett]

As I understand it, Old School Essentials is effectively B/X, so any of the hundreds of supplements for that game should be compatible.

True, they are more or less compatible. However, there is a huge tonal difference. For instance, a lot of the intent is to kinda get in, get the loot and get out. Combat offers little XP, while getting treasure does.

Various Old School games are essentially reprints with some improvements of the B/X and/or BECMI systems. I have not specifically looked at Old School Essentials, but I have a few other systems, and though I like some of the material, so far nothing seems my perfect fit.

 

[kenada]

OSE aspires to be an accurate restatement of B/X. Any issues with incentives it has are shared by the original game. If you’re ignoring those already, so you should be able to continue doing so while using material from OSE. Anyway, OSE Advanced has both bard and druid classes that are inspired by the ones from AD&D. There’s also a druid class in the Rules Cyclopedia, which is an special class for neutral clerics at 9th level.

I am considering making these options that a player can research, but honestly, I think they should be more along the lines of common spells that the average Cleric should just have. Thoughts? Ideas? Comments?

The default cleric spell list is mostly support and utility magic. Giving it attack spells changes the dynamic of the class. Instead of being a fighting-capable class that can support the party with magic, it would be a fighting-capable class that can also fight with magic. It may be not be a bad idea to create a separate class (or a special class like the RC druid) using the cleric list as a base that is not as good at fighting but gets more attack magic.

 

[overgeeked]

As mentioned, Old-School Essentials Advanced Fantasy has already done most of the work for you. If has all the AD&D races, classes, spells, monsters, and magic items converted for the B/X chassis. The classes you mention are in the Player’s Tome. Converting the spells should be simple enough. Adjust the level and damage to match similar B/X spells.

 

[DarthBeckett]

I guess I need to clarify. In 1E, 2E, 3E, etc. . . baseline Clerics have access to Spiritual Hammer <Weapon> and Flame Strike. They do not in BECMI/BX. Perhaps the only editions they do not, not sure.

I am curious if anyone has reintroduced these spell (or something similar), or what people that still played them might think of the concept. Both are kinda sub-par, in my opinion.

I was also wondering if anyone was aware of any homebrew material that might have done similar things, or perhaps created a BECMI Level 1 Druid or Bard Class.

I am perfectly willing to buy material, but having a look at the OSE ORR, it does NOT seem to be my answer. I already own every edition of D&D, Castles and Crusaders, OSRIC, Legends and Labrynths, and whatnot.

Simply converting is easy.

 

[kenada]

Maybe it’s late here, and I’m tired, so I’m missing something obvious, but what’s the OSE ORR?

I guess I need to clarify. In 1E, 2E, 3E, etc. . . baseline Clerics have access to Spiritual Hammer <Weapon> and Flame Strike. They do not in BECMI/BX. Perhaps the only editions they do not, not sure.

They don’t in OD&D, and I doubt they do in Holmes Basic either, but that’s not really germane. Anyway, I understood what you meant. Setting aside my personal inclination (as expressed in post #4), I’d approach the conversion as follows:

• Spiritual Hammer - basically the same as the AD&D version but drop the component cost. D&D doesn’t have spell components, and D&D clerics get spells later and cast fewer of them compared to their AD&D counterparts, so the cost is already pretty high. I’d make the duration one turn and not include a concentration component since it’s basically just a hammer that can hurt creatures that can be harmed only by magical weapons.
• Flame Strike - Copy the MU’s Fire Ball spell and give it to the cleric as a 5th level spell. Instead of a 20′ sphere, make it a 10′ diameter column that’s 30′ high. If you want to take cues from 3e, make half the damage divine. I don’t think it’s worth worrying about Fire Ball being overshadowed by Flame Strike because clerics will get access to it later than MUs get Fire Ball. Target saves versus spells.

 

[Gus L]

I think it's fine to add spells and classes to B/X. Adding ones from newer editions, especially AD&D though... it's been done a lot of times already with varying degrees of success. You can likely find many versions of a B/X (OSE, Labyrinth Lord, Swords & Wizardry, LotFP, or whichever retro-clone you like) monks, assassins, goliaths and whatever else. There's even a page with links to many of the OSR blogger classes (a snapshot at a specific time - maybe 2013?) out there somewhere.

Will they be good? I increasingly think no, but the Monk, Assassin, and Ranger in Greyhawk/AD&D weren't very good either. Same with spells. AD&D was written by taking the kludged together house rules that Gary's players (and some others who wrote into him about their games I think) insisted on and slapping the D&D name on them. They aren't an example of especially good or varied design, and rather the result of some player in 1975 saying "I watched 5 Masters Of Death last night and I want to play a "Shaolin Monk" character. Arneson or someone whips up some rules (I think spitefully ... why else give them bad AC and 1d4 HP at 1st level). The result is fun, and that it can be done is one of the great joys of RPG design, but the Blackmoor monk class? Not some gold standard of RPG design...

I'm sure with some imagination and a bit of time to watch Shaw Brothers flicks we could come up with something as good.

The question I have though is why worry about things like a 5th level spell for your game?
Do you have Clerics ready to cast 5th level spells already?

Why not just see what happens when you have one, and the if you still need a mass direct damage spell for the Cleric ... invent one that is very deity specific. I.E. Cleric of Zeus gets to call lightning storms ... Cleric of Itzapapalotl a wave of blood drinking, knife winged butterflies. Whatever works.

 

[DarthBeckett]

Maybe it’s late here, and I’m tired, so I’m missing something obvious, but what’s the OSE ORR?

While I was looking at OSE, I saw their online reference material. I forget the name exactly, but it was ORR.

 

[DarthBeckett]

I think it's fine to add spells and classes to B/X. Adding ones from newer editions, especially AD&D though... it's been done a lot of times already with varying degrees of success. You can likely find many versions of a B/X (OSE, Labyrinth Lord, Swords & Wizardry, LotFP, or whichever retro-clone you like) monks, assassins, goliaths and whatever else. There's even a page with links to many of the OSR blogger classes (a snapshot at a specific time - maybe 2013?) out there somewhere.

Will they be good? I increasingly think no, but the Monk, Assassin, and Ranger in Greyhawk/AD&D weren't very good either. Same with spells. AD&D was written by taking the kludged together house rules that Gary's players (and some others who wrote into him about their games I think) insisted on and slapping the D&D name on them. They aren't an example of especially good or varied design, and rather the result of some player in 1975 saying "I watched 5 Masters Of Death last night and I want to play a "Shaolin Monk" character. Arneson or someone whips up some rules (I think spitefully ... why else give them bad AC and 1d4 HP at 1st level). The result is fun, and that it can be done is one of the great joys of RPG design, but the Blackmoor monk class? Not some gold standard of RPG design...

I'm sure with some imagination and a bit of time to watch Shaw Brothers flicks we could come up with something as good.

The question I have though is why worry about things like a 5th level spell for your game?
Do you have Clerics ready to cast 5th level spells already?

Why not just see what happens when you have one, and the if you still need a mass direct damage spell for the Cleric ... invent one that is very deity specific. I.E. Cleric of Zeus gets to call lightning storms ... Cleric of Itzapapalotl a wave of blood drinking, knife winged butterflies. Whatever works.

No, I'm actually reading through all the BECMI books and Rules Cyclopedia and have ordered a few adventures I want to try to run in the future.

Currently I am just making a short list of house rules and notes for ideas. I can anticipate people being interested in the Druid and possibly a Bard, so just looking at some ideas.