D&D (2024) Bastion rules: every pub owner is at least 13th level

[Willie the Duck]

But why build upon game mechanics from the 1980's when you can at least use something published in this century as a basis for your new rules system?

Do you have any specific reasoning indicating that the newer rules are better/more appropriate to the game as it exists now? I ask only because 'newer' isn't something that has any specific weight for or against in my book. 5e has done a reasonably good job of marrying TSR-era D&Disms with parts of 3e and 4e. I don't specifically see this instance as something where this strategy would be out of place.

 

[dave2008]

I don't own Xanthar's. Looks like I'll have to check it out.

It is already covered in the DMG as I posted above

 

[Amrûnril]

You're going to have a spigot of 24 hour duration potions available at level 5?

If you have the wealth, status and time to create the associated facility, why not?

As I see it, 5e's choice to make wealth and magic item progression independent of level progression is a feature, not a bug. It facilitates variety between campaigns and a diversity of worldbuilding assumptions about how abundant magic items and high level characters are. Bastions would benefit from the same flexible treatment. If that means that in some campaigns, alchemists' guilds are overseen by level 3 characters, while in others, run of the mill taverns are usually owned by high level retired adventurers, so much the better.

 

[dave2008]

This is what the BECMI edition Expert Rules from 1983 say about fighters building castles:

"A fighter with enough money may build a castle regardless of level. When a fighter reaches Name level, the character is eligible for selection as a Baron (or Baroness)."

But neither my example nor yours is quoting rules published by WotC. The historical state of the game 40 years ago doesn't reflect any changes made since WotC took the helm.

The last dedicated stronghold-related WotC product that I'm aware of is the Stronghold Builders' Guidebook from 3.x Edition. On page 4, that sourcebook says:

"Characters with enough gold and magic at their disposal can construct massive fortresses limited only by their imagination." No minimum level requirements are mentioned anywhere in the guidebook.

So, per WotC's most recent, stronghold-centric product, there are no minimum level requirements for building a stronghold. The 2024 DMG isn't required to follow this precedent, of course. But why build upon game mechanics from the 1980's when you can at least use something published in this century as a basis for your new rules system?

I don't know if you have me on ignore or something, but you don't seem to respond to my posts. The DMG already has rules for building a stronghold at any level (just takes money). The difference is you don't get the bastion benefits. The bastion rules do not replace the rules in the DMG, they augment them.

In post #54 of this thread I provided some of the tables from the DMG. There is more information in the DMG too (and PHB).

EDIT: FYI Xanthar's doesn't really add anything to the guidelines in the DMG and PHB for building and running an establishment. It covers other downtime activities though.

 

[Charlaquin]

Since there is a justification, how then id it arbitrary?

Because there’s no reason it has to be that way. It’s a decision made based on a designer’s discretion rather than a necessary consequence of a rigid system. The designer could easily have chosen differently, and a different justification could have been invented for that different design.

 

[dave2008]

This is what the BECMI edition Expert Rules from 1983 say about fighters building castles:

"A fighter with enough money may build a castle regardless of level. When a fighter reaches Name level, the character is eligible for selection as a Baron (or Baroness)."

But neither my example nor yours is quoting rules published by WotC. The historical state of the game 40 years ago doesn't reflect any changes made since WotC took the helm.

The last dedicated stronghold-related WotC product that I'm aware of is the Stronghold Builders' Guidebook from 3.x Edition. On page 4, that sourcebook says:

"Characters with enough gold and magic at their disposal can construct massive fortresses limited only by their imagination." No minimum level requirements are mentioned anywhere in the guidebook.

So, per WotC's most recent, stronghold-centric product, there are no minimum level requirements for building a stronghold. The 2024 DMG isn't required to follow this precedent, of course. But why build upon game mechanics from the 1980's when you can at least use something published in this century as a basis for your new rules system?

Here is what the 2014 DMG says:
"It’s not unusual for adventurers — especially after 10th level — to gain possession of a castle, a tavern, or another piece of property. They might buy it with their hard-won loot, take it by force, obtain it in a lucky draw from a deck of many things, or acquire it by other means.

The Maintenance Costs table shows the per-day upkeep cost for any such property. (The cost of a normal residence isn’t included here because it falls under lifestyle expenses, as discussed in the Player’s Handbook.) Maintenance expenses need to be paid every 30 days. Given that adventurers spend much of their time adventuring, staff includes a steward who can make payments in the party’s absence.

Total Cost per Day. The cost includes everything it takes to maintain the property and keep things running smoothly, including the salaries of hirelings. If the property earns money that can offset maintenance costs (by charging fees, collecting tithes or donations, or selling goods), that is taken into account in the table.

Skilled and Untrained Hirelings. The Player’s Handbook explains the difference between a skilled hireling and an untrained one.

Businesses​

An adventurer-owned business can earn enough money to cover its own maintenance costs. However, the owner needs to periodically ensure that everything is running smoothly by tending to the business between adventures. See the information on running a business in “Downtime Activities” in this chapter.

Garrisons​

Castles and keeps employ soldiers (use the veteran and guard statistics in the Monster Manual) to defend them. Roadside inns, outposts and forts, palaces, and temples rely on less-experienced defenders (use the guard statistics in the Monster Manual). These armed warriors make up the bulk of a property’s skilled hirelings."

 

[Charlaquin]

Since a stronghold has no intrinsic abilities in 1e (other than followers), and since anyone can build a castle given time and money, i figured it was a distinction without a difference. But fair enough, my bad.

Can anyone build a caste given enough time and money, given that the option to do so is explicitly a feature fighters gain at 9th level? I mean, maybe they can, but I don’t think that’s at all clear from the rules (of 1e) as-written.

 

[Umbran]

Part of the problem is Bastions don't properly interact with other systems. How does that system interact with say permenant magic spells like Major Illusion, Mighty Fortress, Temple of the Gods, Planar Ally, etc...

Plus it needs rules for mobile Bastions like Spelljammers, Walking Castles, Airships, Water Ships, etc..., as well players who want to use the Bastion rules with existing structures like Trollskull Ally in Waterdeep: Dragonheist, Spelljammer's, Ships, etc...

I find it strange that folks seem to expect fully formed and fully polished systems with tons of bells and whistles in a first shot of a playtest and feedback document.

 

[dave2008]

Digging into the bastion rules more and I noticed that people have not commented on the fact the Bastion Pub is actually a spy network for information gathering. It makes the level requirement a little more justified.

That being said, I would take these as level suggestions, not requirements.

 

[Charlaquin]

No Micah, I'm not playing that game with you. Use a new stock argument.

Changing the LEVEL of the PUB is NOT a big deal. It's just not. We're not going to sit here and complain that changing the level of the pub is some massive problem that makes the entirety of Bastions unusable. It isn't. It's ok if you don't like it being that high. I don't either. So I'm going to make pubs (and gambling dens) available at 5th level. There's no problems with this. No serious work. It isn't backbreaking. It takes no mechanical balancing.

I mean, that is the best kind of correct. But also, this is a playtest. We have the opportunity here to say to WotC, “we don’t really like the high level requirement on pubs, could that be removed before publication?” And, there’s value in discussing what we like and dislike in the rules and why, to perhaps help others develop their opinions and/or persuade them of ours, in the time we have before the survey for this UA goes up.