Alter Self for Darkvision?

[Zaruthustran]

Alter Self lets you alter your body. If you add wings, you can fly. If you add gills, you can breathe water.

So... if you add Darkvision-capable eyes, can you see in the dark?

I'm assuming yes. Fly is a third level spell castable on anyone, Water Breathing is a third level spell castable on anyone, and Alter Self duplicates both of these third level spells. The spell Darkvision is a 2nd level spell castable on anyone, so in terms of power it's less than Fly and Alter Self. So I'm guessing that you can do this with Alter Self.

Which means, I suppose, you can be a flying, water-breathing, Darkvision-capable spellcaster as a 3rd level wizard.

Comments? Any relevant Sage postings?

-z

 

[andargor]

Alter Self lets you alter your body. If you add wings, you can fly. If you add gills, you can breathe water.

So... if you add Darkvision-capable eyes, can you see in the dark?

I'm assuming yes. Fly is a third level spell castable on anyone, Water Breathing is a third level spell castable on anyone, and Alter Self duplicates both of these third level spells. The spell Darkvision is a 2nd level spell castable on anyone, so in terms of power it's less than Fly and Alter Self. So I'm guessing that you can do this with Alter Self.

Which means, I suppose, you can be a flying, water-breathing, Darkvision-capable spellcaster as a 3rd level wizard.

Comments? Any relevant Sage postings?

-z

From the SRD:

The character can alter the character's appearance and form-including clothing and equipment-to appear taller or shorter, thin, fat, or in between. The assumed form must be corporeal. The character's body can undergo a limited physical transmutation, including adding or subtracting one or two limbs, and the character's weight can be changed up to one-half. If the form selected has wings, the character can fly at a speed of 30 feet with poor maneuverability. If the form has gills, the character can breathe underwater.
The character's attack rolls, natural armor bonus, and saves do not change. The spell does not confer special abilities, attack forms, defenses, ability scores, or mannerisms of the chosen form. Once the new form is chosen, it remains for the duration of the spell. If the character is slain, the character automatically returns to the character's normal form.
If the character uses this spell to create a disguise, the character gets a +10 bonus on the character's Disguise check.

Other than specificly allowing flight and breathing under water, the spell does not confer any other abilities. And that would include vision, IMHO.

Andargor

 

[LokiDR]

There was a sage response to alter self that stated you could add claws for basic damage. That directly contradicts the spell description. That response also stated you could only do one change per casting.

I would not consider darkvision available as part of a limited transformation though. Maybe lowlight.

You could go nuts with this though. Why stop at darkvision? What about blindsight, like a bat? Improved speed from multiple legs or different types of legs. Alter self should have limits, and I draw the line at darkvision.

 

[Rel]

Our DM recently allowed the party Sorcerer/Barbarian to use Alter Self to gain Blindsight like a bat after he was the victim of a failed save against a blindness spell in the penultimate encounter of the adventure. He didn't seem to have a problem with it but that may have been because if he hadn't allowed it we were probably looking at a TPK.

He did make the player yell, "PING!" at the start of every combat round though.

I recommend allowing it for that reason alone.

 

[smetzger]

This is a gray area and up for DM interpretation of how Darkvision works.

However, following the lead for the wings, _if_ I decided to allow this I would limit the Darkvision to 10 or maybe 20 ft.

 

[LokiDR]

This is a gray area and up for DM interpretation of how Darkvision works.

However, following the lead for the wings, _if_ I decided to allow this I would limit the Darkvision to 10 or maybe 20 ft.

I would call it 30', as "normal" darkvision is easily out to 120'.

The darkvision spell is second level though, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Then again, so is the blindsight spell out of Savage Species.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Seems to me like if you can grow the feathers and wings of a bird (allowing flight), you should be able to grow the nose of a wolf (allowing scent), the ears of a bat (allowing Blindsight), or the eyes of a dwarf (allowing darkvision).

But then, where do you stop? Would you allow the regeneration of a troll? Probably not, since the regeneration doesn't come from a physical structure. But what about bony armor plating (for a Natural Armor bonus)? That's been clearly disallowed, but why? It makes sense that if you can add functional wings you could add functional scales.

I think the real reason is Keep It Simple.

I think this spell (along with many others) is a prime candidate for a Web supplement that provides an exhaustive list of what you can and cannot do. Rulebooks are nice and all, but the Web has no page limit constraints.

-z

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Seems to me like if you can grow the feathers and wings of a bird (allowing flight), you should be able to grow the nose of a wolf (allowing scent), the ears of a bat (allowing Blindsight), or the eyes of a dwarf (allowing darkvision).

I'm not so sure. Wings are simple in concept, and no matter how you slice it, wings are pretty much wings. If you've seen one pair, all you have to do is imagine a bigger pair for yourself. But how can you tell the difference between human eyes and dwarf eyes? How would a mage conceptualize a bat's blindsight? Or what part the bat's ears play in that blindsight (only partial, if I understand correctly)? As you say, Keep it Simple. But the logic works for me because of that very reason. The spell can create simple alterations that the mage can visualize. Tail. Wings. Claws. Gills. But something like "dwarven eyes" is too complex for the spell to duplicate, even if the mage knew how they differed from his own.

But then, where do you stop? Would you allow the regeneration of a troll? Probably not, since the regeneration doesn't come from a physical structure. But what about bony armor plating (for a Natural Armor bonus)? That's been clearly disallowed, but why? It makes sense that if you can add functional wings you could add functional scales.

I'd allow Alter Self to give a person bony armor plating. It simply wouldn't be thick enough to actually confer a natural armor bonus. Again, Alter Self can create the semblance of it, but not the inner aspect of it that gives it true strength.

Or at least, that's how I look at it as a DM.

 

[LokiDR]

Another reason why matters such as darkvision and blindsight don't work could be found in the description of the spell altering your body. You have mussles, so understanding more limbs should be simple. You don't have any sense like blindsight, so you would not be able to make that work. Likewise darkvision. Your mind isn't changed by the spell, so you wouldn't be able to understand the new senses.

I don't know if I agree with "keep it simple" because that would exclude working extra arms but include simple natural armor. I would say "Keep it within reason of the spell" or "ask first".

 

[andargor]

You have mussles, so understanding more limbs should be simple.

You can't have mussles without the Seafood spell.

Andargor