D&D General 5e D&D to OSR pipeline or circle?

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

The reason I feel this way is that the majority of class abilities are directed towards combat. You can certainly play 5e without a combat focus but it’s not as natural a fit; you typically have abilities that are being left unused and players will gravitate to using them. I know full well that I as a player simply chose combat versus social interaction just because I was jonesing for a fight or to use a new ability.

I guess. Not my experience, but that could be true for you.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

I see it noted in the guidelines to players of multiple recently released OSR games (Dolmenwood, HMTW, others): "Avoid Unnecessary combat...players are advised to avoid direct confrontations where possible (DPG p. 143)"; "You should never expect the world around you to be fair...don't fight fair...don't be afraid to cut your loses and run away (HMTW, 16)." It shows up on OSR/NuSR focused blogs and forums all the time.

Well that is 100% how my DM runs 5e and we:

1. Avoid combat
2. If we can’t do #1 we prepare / plan as needed to make the combat advantages for us
3. If we can’t do #1 or #2 we run!

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

How do you encourage out-of-the-box thinking? All I get it blank stares.

Not a DM so I don’t know how you encourage that type of play, but I know as anold school player that plays 5e, it helps to play with people who’ll already play that way. Our group has always played the one OSR style and continued to do so in 4e and 5e.

 

[zakael19]

Well that is 100% how my DM pmayx 5e and we:

1. Avoid combat
2. If we can’t do #1 we prepare / plan as needed to make the combat advantages for us
3. If we can’t do #1 or #2 we run!

Why though? If it's a play preference / social contract, cool. But the system itself doesnt facilitate or encourage this unless the GM has just tossed out all the guidance. At which point, you're not really playing 5e? You're playing "D&D, Unicorn Edition" which is neat and all but doesn't have much relationship to the broad play culture nor the RAW & etc. 5e's most detailed sub-system is literally a grid based tactical combat power fantasy made to be engaging and exciting, and the 2024 edition has only made this more clear.

Like, there wouldn't be tons of OSR philosophy on why B/X spin rulesets create a fundamentally different play culture & experience they prefer if the average player sitting down to 5e was like "oh cool, I'm gonna ignore my entire character sheet and all their skills in favor of just saying things!"

 

[Retreater]

Having a paltry amount of HP isn't my idea of fun, and I've been playing since 1989. It's not just "cautious play is rewarded" - having 1-2 HP where you can easily die in AoE attacks isn't a good time to me. What are you supposed to do - stay in town?
For me, old school play isn't disposable characters and hoping you roll a better one next time. We had lengthy campaigns, heroes who became lords of the realm and faced epic challenges.
Those of you who played dungeon farmers and cooks weren't playing the D&D I recognized.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Why though? If it's a play preference / social contract, cool. But the system itself doesnt facilitate or encourage this unless the GM has just tossed out all the guidance. At which point, you're not really playing 5e? You're playing "D&D, Unicorn Edition" which is neat and all but doesn't have much relationship to the broad play culture nor the RAW & etc. 5e's most detailed sub-system is literally a grid based tactical combat power fantasy made to be engaging and exciting, and the 2024 edition has only made this more clear.

Like, there wouldn't be tons of OSR philosophy on why B/X spin rulesets create a fundamentally different play culture & experience they prefer if the average player sitting down to 5e was like "oh cool, I'm gonna ignore my entire character sheet and all their skills in favor of just saying things!"

This seems like a question for my DM, not me. The only reasons I can give is that is how we like to play? I don’t see anything in the rules of 5e for the players that hinder this style of play. Maybe what you’re talking about is in the DMG?

 

[overgeeked]

Having a paltry amount of HP isn't my idea of fun, and I've been playing since 1989. It's not just "cautious play is rewarded" - having 1-2 HP where you can easily die in AoE attacks isn't a good time to me. What are you supposed to do - stay in town?
For me, old school play isn't disposable characters and hoping you roll a better one next time. We had lengthy campaigns, heroes who became lords of the realm and faced epic challenges.
Those of you who played dungeon farmers and cooks weren't playing the D&D I recognized.

It takes all kinds. I started in 1984 with B/X and quickly moved to AD&D. Most of the group I played with were 8-10 years older than me and had been playing for years already. We also had characters who became heroes and lords with domains and armies, etc, but they absolutely did start as farmers and cooks and were always disposable as Kleenex. Despite loving 4E and running 5E for a decade, the idea of starting as powerful heroes is still weird and not really D&D to me.

 

[billd91]

Why though? If it's a play preference / social contract, cool. But the system itself doesnt facilitate or encourage this unless the GM has just tossed out all the guidance. At which point, you're not really playing 5e? You're playing "D&D, Unicorn Edition" which is neat and all but doesn't have much relationship to the broad play culture nor the RAW & etc. 5e's most detailed sub-system is literally a grid based tactical combat power fantasy made to be engaging and exciting, and the 2024 edition has only made this more clear.

Like, there wouldn't be tons of OSR philosophy on why B/X spin rulesets create a fundamentally different play culture & experience they prefer if the average player sitting down to 5e was like "oh cool, I'm gonna ignore my entire character sheet and all their skills in favor of just saying things!"

Is it really any different to say that for the earliest editions D&D's most detailed subsystems are literally miniature based tactical combat power fantasy? I don't think so. It certainly describes 1e AD&D. Grid based vs miniature-friendly sand table is pretty much a wash. And people have been complaining about combat being the most detailed D&D subsystem throughout its life.

As someone who has played D&D for over 40 years, from the Holmes Basic set through 5e, I can point to a number of differences in how the game plays but there's also a lot of continuity as well. Characters in 5e bounce back a lot more readily than Basic/1e character - that's indisputable. And the game is a lot friendlier toward avoiding PC deaths. Spellcasters have magical endurance without having to resort to backup weapons thanks to cantrips. And yet, if a group of 1st level PCs rush into the Caves of Chaos with 5e rules thinking they can bash through everything, they're still going to end up dead. 1e adventures translate into 5e quite well, and although PCs have more defined abilities and skills than their Basic/1e counterparts (which serves to sidestep a lot of the tedious pixel-auditing of prior editions), the system gives DMs plenty of leeway in adjudication as well as simple adjudication rules ("make an <attribute> check"). Adventure design and table play style still have a LOT to say about what PC behavior will be rewarded or penalized... as they always have.

 

[zakael19]

Sure, if you're on the "system doesn't matter" camp you can argue that. Pretty much the entire OSR movement exists to say "system does matter" when it comes to facilitating a play culture and mindset. Otherwise you wouldn't have all these lightweight rulesets / B/X variants. And if you're in the "5e is perfect and driftable into anything" there's probably not any point in me discussing further down this line because we'll just be throwing darts past each other.

To OP's point: every OSR module I've read is exactly like they said, entirely more "i can open this and play it right away" at the table. THe Necrotic Gnome modules re-written for 5e keep all that magic.

The vast majority of highly popular and 1st party 5e stuff is full of a) read aloud text, b) "plot", and c) organization that's useless at the table in comparison. Even the best organized for play 5e module (Drakkenheim) pales in comparison to any of the top rated stuff from tenfootpole in terms of sheer gamability. I'm not sure why that is, maybe just the WOTC effect of a product culture that's organized to be read and not run?

 

[Remathilis]

I would honestly love to hear what you've done. What all do you do? I've fiddled with monster damage and HP. To me, that's nowhere near enough to get OSR-style play from the 5E chassis. How do you encourage out-of-the-box thinking? All I get it blank stares.

Kill one player character per hour until they learn.