5E: Converting Monsters from White Dwarf Magazine for Fifth Edition

[ilgatto]

Well a creature's Skills section only lists those the creature is proficient in. So in the case of Stealth, it'd normally be DEX Modifier plus Proficiency Bonus.

Some creatures are exceptionally skilled, so either have "Double Proficiency" (so a Challenge 6 monster with a +3 Prof. Bonus would add +6 instead of +3 to a proficient skill).

However, there's nothing in the rules that forbids us from arbitrarily adding a modifier to a skill, such as "+2 to Stealth" and we occasionally do that if we don't like the numbers that Double Proficiency or whatever would create.

For example, a 5E Giant Crocodile has Double Stealth Prof, but the Giant Crocodile Mummy conversion we did has a much higher CR so if it still had Double Stealth it's be a LOT more sneaky than the living reptile despite being a creaking undead restricted by a tight wrapping of bandages. So we arbitrarily gave it Single Proficiency with a +3 bonus, so it would have Stealth +5 like the SRD Giant Croc.

OK thanks. I'll see if I can make sense of some "aberrant" 5E MM Stealth scores using the above and then see if the mouseman should have Stealth and to what extent.

 

[ilgatto]

Usually have a spell checker running, but am frequently surprised when it doesn't recognize what I think of as a relatively well known word. Although I suppose D&D gamers tend to employ a more eccentric vocabulary than an average user.

Most assuredly, good Sir, most assuredly!

Which reminds me: It was the word "miscreant" I was looking for when you pointed out to me that Adonides most certainly wasn't a "cretin".

 

[Cleon]

OK thanks. I'll see if I can make sense of some "aberrant" 5E MM Stealth scores using the above…

The above approach considers that a feature rather than a bug!

…and then see if the mouseman should have Stealth and to what extent.

I'd suggest using the Brownie for comparison, as Micemen are Brownie-Orc hybrids, but I don't think Brownies have official WotC stats in 5E yet.

All the unofficial 5E Brownies I've seen have Stealth proficiency though, and the analogous Sprite has double Stealth Proficiency plus invisibility.

Maybe a Goblin would be a better comparison? Those have Double Stealth.

 

[Cleon]

Most assuredly, good Sir, most assuredly!

Which reminds me: It was the word "miscreant" I was looking for when you pointed out to me that Adonides most certainly wasn't a "cretin".

That makes more sense!

 

[ilgatto]

The above approach considers that a feature rather than a bug!



I'd suggest using the Brownie for comparison, as Micemen are Brownie-Orc hybrids, but I don't think Brownies have official WotC stats in 5E yet.

All the unofficial 5E Brownies I've seen have Stealth proficiency though, and the analogous Sprite has double Stealth Proficiency plus invisibility.

Maybe a Goblin would be a better comparison? Those have Double Stealth.

I'm still pondering whether to give them Stealth anyway. The original text doesn't really suggest them being exceptionally stealthy and the only reason I'm considering it is because they lay ambushes and are called mousemen (which could suggests quickness and stealth) - and because "Ambusher" seems a it strong because "Advantage" to attack rolls.
I briefly saw the various homebrew brownies on DnDBeyond (I think it was DnDBeyond) but I soon gave up on these because stats would vary wildly.
Compared mousemen to goblins (and other small and tiny monsters in 5E MM), but goblins are Small and I've got the mousemen at Tiny so far, and I otherwise didn't think much of mousemen as being like goblins. Same with sprites, more or less, but I'd consider sprites A LOT stealthier than mousemen because sprites are faeries and mousemen aren't really.
So that's why I was trying to get to grips with the term "Stealth" first before deciding what's what with the mousemen.

Anyway. We should probably get to this after the dragon warriors.

 

[ilgatto]

That makes more sense!

Not that the term "miscreant" applies much to Adonides, of course...

 

[ilgatto]

The original text doesn't really suggest them being exceptionally stealthy

Let me rephrase that: The original does suggest they are stealthy.

 

[Cleon]

Let me rephrase that: The original does suggest they are stealthy.

Yes, the Mousemen's "favourite method of attack is to silently surround their intended victim" which suggests they're sneaky, although they don't have higher-than-normal odds of surprise or thief-style Move Silently or Hide In Shadows percentages, which is the normal AD&D approach to being stealthy.

However, a Goblin doesn't have any stealth skill in AD&D either and they're really sneaky in 5E so I'm inclined to give a 5E interpretation of the Mouseman at least Stealth Proficiency if not Double Stealth.

As to size, the original text doesn't specify. They're described as stronger than regular brownies, which are Tiny and 2 feet tall in 2E with HD 1/2 (i.e. 1 to 4 hp), but a Mouseman is HD 1-1 (1 to 7 hp) the same as a Goblin.

They are a cross between a Tiny Fey brownie and a Medium Humanoid orc so could be Small, as that's the size inbetween the two, but I prefer making them Tiny as (a) it distinguishes them better from Goblins and Kobolds and (b) mice are hardly noted for their size.

Rather than literal daggers and javelins I imagine they use wee swords and spears that are so small they have the same damage as a dagger: 1d4.

The 5E Sprite has a "Longsword" and "Shortbow" that only do 1 point of damage, so there is precedent for Tiny creatures wielding artificial weapons that do less damage than those of Medium creatures.

So maybe the Micemen have weapons that do a dice size less? Shortswords that do 1d4 slashing and Spears that do 1d4 piercing or 1d6 wielded two-handed as they're Versatile weapons)

Anyhow, I'd better stop before I'm too distracted from the Dragon Warrior conversion.

 

[ilgatto]

Yes, the Mousemen's "favourite method of attack is to silently surround their intended victim" which suggests they're sneaky, although they don't have higher-than-normal odds of surprise or thief-style Move Silently or Hide In Shadows percentages, which is the normal AD&D approach to being stealthy.

However, a Goblin doesn't have any stealth skill in AD&D either and they're really sneaky in 5E so I'm inclined to give a 5E interpretation of the Mouseman at least Stealth Proficiency if not Double Stealth.

As to size, the original text doesn't specify. They're described as stronger than regular brownies, which are Tiny and 2 feet tall in 2E with HD 1/2 (i.e. 1 to 4 hp), but a Mouseman is HD 1-1 (1 to 7 hp) the same as a Goblin.

They are a cross between a Tiny Fey brownie and a Medium Humanoid orc so could be Small, as that's the size inbetween the two, but I prefer making them Tiny as (a) it distinguishes them better from Goblins and Kobolds and (b) mice are hardly noted for their size.

Rather than literal daggers and javelins I imagine they use wee swords and spears that are so small they have the same damage as a dagger: 1d4.

The 5E Sprite has a "Longsword" and "Shortbow" that only do 1 point of damage, so there is precedent for Tiny creatures wielding artificial weapons that do less damage than those of Medium creatures.

So maybe the Micemen have weapons that do a dice size less? Shortswords that do 1d4 slashing and Spears that do 1d4 piercing or 1d6 wielded two-handed as they're Versatile weapons)

Anyhow, I'd better stop before I'm too distracted from the Dragon Warrior conversion.

I've been through much of the above and agree on size T to distinguish them from kobolds/goblins like you say.

Have also been looking at tiny daggers and javelins but couldn't find much more on the subject than sprites doing 1 point of damage with their longswords (maybe also a result of STR proficiency modifier?) and pixies not inflicting damage at all. Then I came across the "dart", which also does 1d4 so I decided what heck.

Over the years, I've sort of defined various "small weapons" from many 1E/2E publications and made them into a comprehensive bunch but I didn't feel much like doing the same for 5E weapons coz there ain't any clear-cut examples I could find.

Replacing them with short swords/spears that do 1 die less damage is a good idea, but then I'd have to deviate from the original text, which I always try to avoid.

Stealth is definitely going to be a skill and I'm inclined to go with no extra bonuses like your first suggestion on the subject. I can't really be bothered that goblins are stealthier in 5E - apparently they are.

Anyway.

Must... stop... posting... on... micemen... until.... dragon... warriors... are... done...

EDIT: Must... also... stop... calling... them... mousemen... It's... micemen...

 

[Cleon]

Have also been looking at tiny daggers and javelins but couldn't find much more on the subject than sprites doing 1 point of damage with their longswords (maybe also a result of STR proficiency modifier?) and pixies not inflicting damage at all.

Well standard 5E Pixies don't have any damaging weapon attacks.

Then I came across the "dart", which also does 1d4 so I decided what heck.

A Dart's a finesse weapon though, so if a Sprite used one then, going by the Rules-as-Written, it would add its +4 DEX bonus to the piercing damage rather than its –4 STR penalty. That's an 8 point increase!

EDIT: Must... also... stop... calling... them... mousemen... It's... micemen...

Since 3E came out the use of "Man" in D&D monster names has fallen out of favour to be replaced by "Folk". For example, Lizard Men are now Lizardfolk.

So Micemen likely call themselves Micefolk nowadays, or possibly the Mousefolk.

Now I'm wondering whether the preferred singular of the original monster was "Miceman". It might be, but I think "Mouseman" has a better ring to it.

Unfortunately, White Dwarf #21 only ever refers to them in the plural so we'll likely never know the preferred singular usage.

Must... stop... posting... on... micemen... until.... dragon... warriors... are... done...

Looks like you're not the only one!