D&D 4E 4E vs 5E: Monsters and bounded accuracy

[Ilbranteloth]

You mean

Point here being: fighters do fearsome amounts of damage. Just not all in one shot.

This makes them less good at "oneshotting" Ogres. Just killing them in a single round wasn't accepted as equivalent.

Yes, I agree. My point was they made a design decision to make rogues better at a one-shot, and fighters better by using multiple attacks. They can be used against the same target, or multiple targets, and that was sort of my point. The rogue hits hard, but just one target. A fighter can hit several if they want when they get to higher level.

 

[Xeviat]

Basically, because CR is calculated differently in 5E than in older editions. In 3E/4E you could assume "+2 to hit and +10 hp = +1 CR" (or however the math worked out, it's been a long time since I looked at the specifics) and it would be close enough for getting on with. In 5E, a change like that would crank a kobold's CR way up, but wouldn't even register on a troll. So you can't just put an "advanced" template on a beastie, you kinda have to refigure everything if you want a good handle on it.

Which... kinda defeats the point of simple templates.

They do have some "template-like" stuff in the tables on p. 280-282 of the DMG, tho.

-The Gneech

Actually, since +2 attack boosts "offensive CR" by 1, and the HP/CR is about +15, +2 to hit and +10 hp would equal +1 CR in 5E in most cases (unless they were on the lower end of the HP for their CR). Templates that boost CR would be very easy to do in 5E.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Only the lower end of the CR table seems fudged. The rest seems to have a system.
I still hope maybe we get OCR and DCR values sometime in the MM. Would help estimating the real threat better.

 

[Henry]

I have a solution. We've had people playing this new game for a few years now; what we need is a monster product for Dungeons & Dragons that adds a few extra tweaks in the form of abilities or strategies for the more experienced referees to take advantage of. We could make it a monster book, call it, "Advanced..."


...wait a minute...

 

[Xeviat]

I have a solution. We've had people playing this new game for a few years now; what we need is a monster product for Dungeons & Dragons that adds a few extra tweaks in the form of abilities or strategies for the more experienced referees to take advantage of. We could make it a monster book, call it, "Advanced..."


...wait a minute...

I'm actually working on something like this right now. After my party level 6 party of 4 dispatched a dragon in 3 rounds, I'm really missing Elites and Solos.


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[Tony Vargas]

I'm actually working on something like this right now. After my party level 6 party of 4 dispatched a dragon in 3 rounds, I'm really missing Elites and Solos.

Was it a properly Legendary dragon, or just garden-variety?

 

[Xeviat]

Was it a properly Legendary dragon, or just garden-variety?

Young green, so not legendary yet. Do the legendary actions work out to spreading damage out more? I notice that there isn't a huge breath weapon jump from young to adult.

At CR 8, vs a party of level 6s, it's breath weapon was almost enough to toast the party.

This where CR vs Normal/Solo stats falls apart for me. If it's strong enough to face a party, it's damage is going to be really high. If you maneuver the CR system to give them a ton of hp and lower damage, then it's not a challenge for a party closer in level. You could have its damage be high but through multiple attacks and area attacks, but then it's still super deadly if it focuses those attacks on one.

I wish the 5E player stuff was compatible with the 4E monster stuff.


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[Tony Vargas]

Young green, so not legendary yet. Do the legendary actions work out to spreading damage out more?

Damage inflicted by the legendary monster? If you use them that way. Damage to the monster? I wouldn't think so.

I wish the 5E player stuff was compatible with the 4E monster stuff.

Be careful, if you go through with that, you may never be able to cast Wish again.

 

[flametitan]

I wish the 5E player stuff was compatible with the 4E monster stuff.

If you're willing to take the time, I think it's possible to take one or two powers from 4e to give them something interesting without changing CR drastically. Most of the modules seem to have an example of doing such to customize their creatures (I know SKT has an entire section on ways to make giants more interesting).

Might not even need to do a full conversion, just take the power as written, give it an X/day number (if necessary), and if the differences are drastic enough, shuffle the damage around so that it matches the expected damage output in the DMG, and there you have it.

 

[Xeviat]

If you're willing to take the time, I think it's possible to take one or two powers from 4e to give them something interesting without changing CR drastically. Most of the modules seem to have an example of doing such to customize their creatures (I know SKT has an entire section on ways to make giants more interesting).

Might not even need to do a full conversion, just take the power as written, give it an X/day number (if necessary), and if the differences are drastic enough, shuffle the damage around so that it matches the expected damage output in the DMG, and there you have it.

It's not the monster powers at the moment. Is the monster math. Heck, that's in the player math too, but it could be fixed simply by giving more hp.

Adding monster powers does spice them up. But that's teetering on Oberoni Fallacy territory there.


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