D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5E] Will Warriors be on equal footing with casters?

[Dark Jezter]

One thing I've noticed quite often on this forum is that people often say that during the mid-to-high levels of a game, players in the warrior classes (Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger) take a backseat to powerful clerics and wizards/sorcerers. While this hasn't been a real problem in most games I've played (A warrior making good use of feats like power attack and great cleave is capable of some pretty impressive things, but then again, maybe the mages in my party aren't using thier full potential ) I've noticed that many people here do claim to have problems with warriors becoming useless during the higher levels.

On this forum and others, I've seen rumors and whispers that 3.5E is going to make high-level warriors more viable. While it's already been pretty-much confirmed that the Ranger will be getting a few tweaks, does anybody know any other changes to the warrior classes? If not, how do you think would be a good way to make warriors more effective at higher levels?

 

[Shard O'Glase]

well hopefully they'll put into the game high level combat feats. you know things that require a 12-18 BAB and require that for a good reason because they kick butt.

still spellcasters overall have a signifigant edge in that they can use their spells to solve a wide range of problems in and out of combat. The oly thing going warrior types way is SR and save cn get obscene which can virtually neuter spellcasters if they fight those types of creatures to often.

 

[Apok]

From my experience, the balance of power works like this; at low levels, warrior-types are your mainstays and rule the combat arena. At medium levels, the casters take over as the big damage dealers. At high and epic levels, warriors once again take over. At Super-Epic (30+) the spellcasters can potentially take over if they are built right.

I've seen fighter-types deal upwards of 300 points of damage in a round consistently. Spellcasters can't touch this kind of damage until they hit super-epic levels (30+) with appropriate feat selections.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see the issue here.

 

[Zappo]

I don't have problems with the power level of warriors at high levels. However, I reckon they lack versatility when compared to casters, not being able to do much outside of combat. Maybe some extra skill points would do the trick.

I also would like high-level feats, to fill the gap between levels 1-10 and epic.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I'll second this. In fact, even at mid levels, it seems like warriors usually end up being the damage mainstays.

I've seen 7th level archers who easily deal out 60 points of damage per round without crits or haste.

The group I'm normally playing Living Greyhawk includes an 8th level multiclassed fighter who regularly deals 50-75 points of damage per round if he's facing crittable foes with low to moderate ACs. Against foes with higher ACs, that goes down to 30-40 points of damage per round.

Casters generally seem to provide healing, buffs, and summonings and can compete in the damage department if they're really optimized for damage dealing. They hardly rule the roost though.

I don't see any problem either.

From my experience, the balance of power works like this; at low levels, warrior-types are your mainstays and rule the combat arena. At medium levels, the casters take over as the big damage dealers. At high and epic levels, warriors once again take over. At Super-Epic (30+) the spellcasters can potentially take over if they are built right.

I've seen fighter-types deal upwards of 300 points of damage in a round consistently. Spellcasters can't touch this kind of damage until they hit super-epic levels (30+) with appropriate feat selections.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see the issue here.

 

[Zappo]

Also, the almost-certain nerfing of Haste alone will be a serious blow to the spellcasters' power.

 

[Dark Jezter]

Also, the almost-certain nerfing of Haste alone will be a serious blow to the spellcasters' power.

Oh yes. No longer can spellcasters use it to cast two spells per round, but it still allows an extra attack per round. I think that with 3.5E, Haste will become more of a fighter-buffing spell and less of a mage-buffing spell.

 

[Steverooo]

High-level Fighters

Well, I'm one of those people who has seen seventh level fighter-types unable to do ANYTHING in combat against a magical foe... even with a +3 sword! Hopefully, the DR changes will help to take care of that.

The problem that I see is that Fighters don't cast spells, and Rangers' are basically useless for solving problems. Fighters can only affect a foe if they can live long enough to get to them... or use a long range missile weapon!

I have seen too many modules with various situations that can only be resolved by magic. Since Fighters can't cast magic...

In order for Fighters (especially) to be useful at higher levels, they need Ioun stones full of spells, magical swords and armors, magic items which increase Non-Fortitude saves, magic items which allow them to cast spells...

In other words, their class abilities don't cut it.

So what can be done?

Well, you could give them spell use (like most of the 3e classes). Yuck, huh? You could beef them up with magic items, or give them anti-magical powers (the latter being the 1e Barbarian's fortè, removed in 3e). You could give them Leadership and a coterie of lower-level fighters to command... Or, you could give them tactical skills to give them advantages in higher level combats.

Exactly what would work I don't know... The problem, as I see it, is; "Only a fool goes to a gunfight without a gun." -- or in this case, only a Fighter goes to a magical free-for-all without magic. Whether a Fighter can do 500 HP/round isn't really the issue. A Wall of Force or similar will stop her, cold, with no way around it. So will Hold Person or a host of other spells. Raising the Will saves might help, some, but not solve the problem.

IMHO. YMMV.

(Edit: Typo!)

 

[mkarol]

Re: High-level Fighters

I have seen too many modules with various situations that can only be resolved by magic. Since Fighters can't cast magic...

Ever played a Wizard in a dead magic / anti-magic area? Not pretty.

The fundamental problem with fighters is not there 'unbalanced' in that they can't compete in a wizard's duel. The problem is that, in general, players make their Fighter (the class) characters into nothing but, well fighters (the activity). Granted, with low skill points, and those in class being limited, that makes it natural to get the most (perceived) bang for the buck out of the fighter feats/skills/damaging magic items.

When I hear unbalanced, I think not "who can do the most damage in combat" but "who can do the least, overall, in the adventure." Spice up your fighters with other things to do. For example, make them expert craftsmen, not only of swords, but also of horseshoes or other metal work. They can help the ranger calm down horses or help the rogue discern how well made a chest is. Take some feats outside of the fighter chain at 1/3/6th level... something that rounds out the character.

At least, that's how we have handled the martial classes.... And the DMs in my games have crafted challenges and opportunities for each character to contribute in and out of combat.

 

[D-rock]

High level spellcasters might be able to beat high level warriors in a stand duel, but fighters as long as they have hit points left can dish out damage all day long. If a spellcaster has to use all his spells and scrolls and he can't rest for a while he has the potential to become nothing more than a paperweight.