Spelljammer Converting Spelljammer creatures

[Arnwyn]

Yeah, it looks good.

 

[Cleon]

Yeah, it looks good.

I assume by that you support the Spinning Flight SQ and the increased number of Swallow Whole victims.

Do you have any preferences for the Swallow Whole damage?

 

[freyar]

Your arguments for boosted DR seem to describe precisely boosted AC, but whatever.

I will agree to the increased Swallow Whole capacity. Maybe crushing damage equal to 1/2 the bite base damage (+ Str) and a similar amount of acid damage?

The way I read the original monster, Spinning Flight, Ramming, and Flame Sheath are all part of the same ability. And I don't see any justification for the "all-around vision" aspect of Spinning Flight that you have there. I think we should try to combine these abilities a bit. Maybe make Spinning Flight the ability that gives the faster speed, and only spinning gammaroids can use the Ramming or Flame Sheath special attacks.

 

[Arnwyn]

I assume by that you support the Spinning Flight SQ and the increased number of Swallow Whole victims.

Yes! (notably the swallow whole and moving on to the flame sheath)

Do you have any preferences for the Swallow Whole damage?

No, no preferences. I'm not sure what's appropriate for a creature this size (and of the possible CR).

Hmmm.... freyar makes good points. The ramming and spinning flight are sort of the same ability. The original's spinning flight is just "flying at spelljamming speeds" to ram and that part isn't really relevant for what we need to do for 3e - it just needs to 'ram good' at a decent speed. (And it wasn't even relevant in 2e - it just had a fast tactical speed on the hex grid [SR 9] and did a ship critical hit.) Right now, the "flying at quadruple speed" line of the ramming ability seems to cover what it needs to, and "retract" seems to cover the defensive part as well as already noting that it can ram and flame sheath in that form (and can "sense its surroundings normally").

Maybe it just needs:
Ramming (Ex) maybe lower the speed here (i.e. a normal charge) and it does damage. (Alternately, remove the ramming ability and include it retract, if we want that method to be the only way it can ram...?)

Retract (Ex) as noted, but maybe note that this is where it can 'ram faster', going quadruple speed when retracted, getting a bonus to ramming damage? (Or, as I note above, maybe this is the only way it can ram...?)

Flame Sheath (Ex) when retracted and ramming within an atmosphere, it does an additional x fire damage (doing full fire energy damage to objects, but hardness still applies)?

I'm ambivalent about the all-around vision. Is there precedence for something like that being required (or not required)? Because I do agree this: "and can sense and move in all directions with equal faculty" is true when it is retracted and/or spinning. But, as noted above, the Retract ability already has "sense its surroundings normally", which I liked. Is that good enough?

 

[Cleon]

I will agree to the increased Swallow Whole capacity. Maybe crushing damage equal to 1/2 the bite base damage (+ Str) and a similar amount of acid damage?

Yes! (notably the swallow whole and moving on to the flame sheath)

I'll update the Gammaroid Working Draft with the increased Swallow Whole capacity then.

So 8d6+32 plus 8d6 acid for the gizzard? That's less effective than the bite (especially if it has the Power Attack feat to boost the damage, which seems likely). I'm not against it in principle, 'cause it can lead to an "escape from inside the gammaroid" incident.

The way I read the original monster, Spinning Flight, Ramming, and Flame Sheath are all part of the same ability. And I don't see any justification for the "all-around vision" aspect of Spinning Flight that you have there. I think we should try to combine these abilities a bit. Maybe make Spinning Flight the ability that gives the faster speed, and only spinning gammaroids can use the Ramming or Flame Sheath special attacks.

Well technically they're intertwined, but I'd prefer to list them separately for the sake of clarity.

I was intending to make it so only spinning gammaroids can use Ramming or Flame Sheath.

Maybe it just needs:
Ramming (Ex) maybe lower the speed here (i.e. a normal charge) and it does damage. (Alternately, remove the ramming ability and include it retract, if we want that method to be the only way it can ram...?)

Retract (Ex) as noted, but maybe note that this is where it can 'ram faster', going quadruple speed when retracted, getting a bonus to ramming damage? (Or, as I note above, maybe this is the only way it can ram...?)

I don't fancy adding an offensive special attack (Ramming) to a defensive special quality (Retract), It'd make it confusing.

Similarly, while Retract is a precursor for it using its "spinning flight", I don't think it belongs in its description.

I'm ambivalent about the all-around vision. Is there precedence for something like that being required (or not required)? Because I do agree this: "and can sense and move in all directions with equal faculty" is true when it is retracted and/or spinning. But, as noted above, the Retract ability already has "sense its surroundings normally", which I liked. Is that good enough?

I was more interested in giving it "cannot be flanked" when spinning, since how do you get behind a creature when its constantly turning around?

However, it's not a big deal to me so we could just drop that part of it. It's not like many creatures will be able to outmaneuver a creature moving at a 450 ft. fly speed in order to flank it, after all!

I do like the idea of it being able to fly without spinning around, since the gammaroid's cinematic inspiration was able to do so.

 

[Cleon]

Flame Sheath (Ex) when retracted and ramming within an atmosphere, it does an additional x fire damage (doing full fire energy damage to objects, but hardness still applies)?

The original description says the flame sheath is "an enveloping fireball" which sounds like it affects an area around the spinning gammaroid. Wouldn't its flame sheath burn something that just gets too close to the gammaroid as it spins past?

Also, the gammaroid is plenty big enough to have its own atmosphere envelop in Spelljammer, so how does it ever spin outside of an atmosphere?

I'd prefer to just say it can "envelop itself in flames when using spinning flight" and not bother explaining the mechanism it uses.

 

[Cleon]

Maybe make Spinning Flight the ability that gives the faster speed.

Further on that, if we are going to include a faster "spelljamming" flight ability, then including it in a Spinning Flight ability would make sense.

For example:

Spinning Flight (Ex): A gammaroid that has retracted into its shell can spin around with incredible speed while flying. If the spinning gammaroid makes a double move action (such as a charge attack), it can move four [?] times its normal flying speed (1,800 ft.). If it uses the run action while in spinning flight, it moves eight times its normal speed (3,600 ft.), or nine times (4,050 ft.) if it has the Run feat.

That way itsmaximum Spinning Flight speed matches the original creature's SR 9 Spelljamming speed if we use the 150 yard tactical hexes that Arnwyn prefers.

 

[Arnwyn]

The original description says the flame sheath is "an enveloping fireball" which sounds like it affects an area around the spinning gammaroid. Wouldn't its flame sheath burn something that just gets too close to the gammaroid as it spins past?

Also, the gammaroid is plenty big enough to have its own atmosphere envelop in Spelljammer, so how does it ever spin outside of an atmosphere?

I'd prefer to just say it can "envelop itself in flames when using spinning flight" and not bother explaining the mechanism it uses.

Well, theoretically everything in Spelljammer generates its own gravity and can thus hold an air envelope (if passing through or starting from an atmosphere) - even a halfling (or smaller)!

The wording in the original description, noting specifically "In atmosphere, ..." implies to me that it has to be in an actual atmosphere (not air envelope) to do so, and those are different things in Spelljammer. (Though I do see your point.)

With that said, I'm not picky, so I'm okay with how you want to lay it out. (Always flames, and if you want, some type of area. Though if it makes it too complicated, I'm okay with leaving the 'area' damage out. Having an area of flame makes it a bit more complicated when adjudicating a spelljamming ship fight, which doesn't need any more complications!)

I'm cool with the faster speed being included with the spinning - that's in line with the original description and how I see it. (Oh, and it's 150 foot hexes, not yards. I realize I was unclear in my post back when I first noted it. 500 yds in the original rules turned out to be... not great, so the newest/best rules yanked that down to 150 ft. hexes, which works much better, both in terms of ship placement and shorter distances.)

Otherwise... cool.

 

[freyar]

Separate abilities are ok; I was just concerned because they didn't look to be tied to each other. I agree that the Flame Sheath should be an aura.

I'm not opposed to increasing the Swallow Whole damage.

 

[Cleon]

Well, theoretically everything in Spelljammer generates its own gravity and can thus hold an air envelope (if passing through or starting from an atmosphere) - even a halfling (or smaller)!

The wording in the original description, noting specifically "In atmosphere, ..." implies to me that it has to be in an actual atmosphere (not air envelope) to do so, and those are different things in Spelljammer. (Though I do see your point.)

With that said, I'm not picky, so I'm okay with how you want to lay it out. (Always flames, and if you want, some type of area. Though if it makes it too complicated, I'm okay with leaving the 'area' damage out. Having an area of flame makes it a bit more complicated when adjudicating a spelljamming ship fight, which doesn't need any more complications!)

Yes, I agree the wording suggests that the original intent was that a gammaroid can only flame sheath in a planetary atmosphere, it's mainly that the explanation for it doesn't make much sense to me.

The text says it spins so fast that atmospheric friction creates a sheath of flame around it. So it creates flame like a meteor burning through an atmosphere does.

To generate that sort of friction the outer rim of its shell would have to be travelling at high atmospheric re-entry speeds - tens of thousands of miles per hour. A typical meteor hits the earth at about 18 miles per second, or about 65,000 mph. A 2,500 foot diameter gammaroid would have to spin at about 725 revolutions per minute for its shell edge to reach that speed.

That's vastly faster than tactical spelljammer speeds. A gammaroid's 9 SR works out as either 1534 mph or 153 mph depending on whether we're talking 500 yard or 150 foot tactical hexes.

If it can spin like that in a planetary atmosphere, why can't it do it in an air envelope? The air pressure's similar or else spelljammer travellers wouldn't be able to breathe. I can see two possibilities.

Firstly, if the gammaroid's air envelope rotates in sync with the gammaroid, it wouldn't rub against its shell and generate heat. The problem with that is it means the gammaroid is spinning in the middle of a hypersonic hurricane. Any objects that impact the air envelope may not take damage from heat, but they certainly would from the winds travelling at tens of thousands of miles per hour.

Secondly, the gammaroid may only be able to spin that fast when its near a strong gravity source like a planet. That'd fit the facts better, but how does it do it? Spelljamming doesn't work at anything over tactical speeds when you're close to a planet or any other body - that's why a vessel can't use "interplanetary" spelljammer speeds until they in clear space.

Frankly, it'd makes better sense if it generated the flame sheath by shooting fire out of the leg-holes in its shell like a certain other giant turtle...

I don't mind it being unable to use its flame sheath in airless environments, but I think it should be able to do so when it has an air envelope.

How's this for a draft:

Flame Sheath (Ex): A gammaroid using Spinning Flight can envelop itself in a fireball of superheated air as a free? action. This Flame Sheath has a diameter of X feet and does Y fire damage per round to everything within it. The Flame Sheath is centered on the gammaroid and moves as the gammaroid moves. A gammaroid can maintain a Flame Sheath for as long as it wishes, but the Flame Sheath immediately ends if the gammaroid stops using Spinning Flight.

A gammaroid cannot create a Flame Sheath when surrounded by vacuum, since the heat and flames will instantly disperse into an airless void. This is not usually a problem for a gammaroid travelling in space, since their own gravity field carries an air envelope along with the creature.