Your money or your life?

[JDJblatherings]

It's all basic psychology.

Some players see the DM as in control of the entire campaign and the player is in control of a PC as spelled out on the character sheet. Taking something off the character sheet is taking away some of the players control.

 

[LostSoul]

"Wanting to roleplay" isn't an in-character motivation.

I don't think I understand. You can roleplay with a new PC just as well.

Maybe you mean that a primary motivation is to roleplay the PC in the "right"* way? That's cool. It would be even cooler if the system didn't penalize you for doing it.

Instead of having to make a choice about whether or not you should roleplay - "Do I stay true to character or do I go with the more effective PC? I would like to stay true, but I don't want to have a less effective PC because of it" - just make it a non-option. "My choices are to stay true to character and retain the same level of overall effectiveness, or break character and be about as effective as before. Hmm, I wonder what I should do?"

* - What's "right" is defined by the group's own taste, of course.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Per 200 ft, actually, assuming sunlight. And the DC to notice a non-hiding medium creature is 0.

glass.

I agree that -1/200ft _should_ be the rule in sunlight, but I've never seen it written. A quick perusal of the Spot entry in the SRD lacks this qualifier. Could you cite your source?

Ken

 

[nightwyrm]

A reason PCs would rather die than lose their stuff is that players don't see their stuff as "stuff". Once something goes on their character sheet, it's part of their character. A dragon asking PCs to surrender their stuff to him and then he'll let them live is no different from a vampire asking if he could permanently level drain the PCs a level or two and then he'll let them live.

Being nerfed is one factor, another is the loss of control. The only thing a player controls in the game is his character and most players hate to lose control over his character. It doesn't matter if it's losing stuff, or getting captured or getting railroaded.

Finally, while it may seem metagamey for PCs to rather die than surrender their stuff, "fighting to the death" is a time honoured and well-established trope. And having a character be defined by his stuff is not that uncommon in fiction either. What do you think would happen if you asked King Arthur to hand over Excalibur? While the PC's +3 sword is much less powerful than Excalibur, it is probably as important to the PC as Excalibur is to Arthur.

A PC is defined mostly by his abilities and his stuff. The loot he has gathered over the course of the campaign is as much a proof of his existence and heroism as the levels he has gained.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I don't think I understand. You can roleplay with a new PC just as well.

Meaning, apparently, "not at all"?

Roleplaying an actual personality is, like sticking to principles, sometimes inconvenient. If a player roleplays a character with nothing in mind but the mechanical rewards available, what that player is doing is, IMO, not roleplaying. He's playing a game, sure, but it ain't a roleplaying game.

 

[LostSoul]

Meaning, apparently, "not at all"?

Roleplaying an actual personality is, like sticking to principles, sometimes inconvenient. If a player roleplays a character with nothing in mind but the mechanical rewards available, what that player is doing is, IMO, not roleplaying. He's playing a game, sure, but it ain't a roleplaying game.

In order for it to be a roleplaying game, sometimes you have to make the choice between fun and staying true to character?

I can see that... I'm not sure it's good design, though. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Akaiku]

If a player roleplays a character with nothing in mind but the mechanical rewards available, what that player is doing is, IMO, not roleplaying.

Or perhaps they are trying to win? Few people play soley to lose. If a given personality is shoestringed into always failing, generaly speaking, people will either complain or adapt. The three ways to adapt to this is to change your character's personality midgame, roll up a new character with said changed personality, or to find a game where the personality you are playing isn't doomed to failure.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

What's the DC of the Spot check to see the moon? Anybody know? Eberron has 12 moons of different sizes, so I guess I'll need to figure out all of them.

 

[billd91]

In order for it to be a roleplaying game, sometimes you have to make the choice between fun and staying true to character?

I can see that... I'm not sure it's good design, though. Maybe I'm wrong.

I fail to see how it could be designed away under all circumstances. Playing a character reasonably faithfully can be constraining. Paragons of good don't burn down orphanages despite it possibly being fun to do so. You've made a choice between a particular kind of fun and staying true to character yet I don't think most people would say the game needs to be designed to do away with that choice.

In the case of actual game mechanic designs, some mechanically advantageous choices may not be in-character for a PC to pursue. If I want to be a magic-wary barbarian, I'm explicitly choosing to not pursue powerful spellcasting options despite the fact that using spells to overcome obstacles can be a lot of fun and there may be situations in which magical options are the most effective ones both realistically and mechanically. Should that choice be designed away for me?

And, perhaps more importantly, should all negative consequences of choices I make be designed away from the game? If that's the case, are any choices actually meaningful?

 

[Jeff Wilder]

In order for it to be a roleplaying game, sometimes you have to make the choice between fun and staying true to character?

Well, personally speaking, I thought "staying true to character" was at least part of the fun of roleplaying games. No choice required.

If not, I've been playing wrong for a long, long time.

If I just want to play a game where I go around killing monsters and taking their stuff, I play Talisman. I'm definitely not interested in DMing Talisman, and I hope my players know that. I suppose I should make sure.