Worlds of Design: The Problem with Magimarts

I dislike magic item stores ("magimarts") in my games. Here's why.

I dislike magic item stores. Here's why.

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Picture courtesy of Pixabay.

Magic items are a part of every fantasy role-playing game, and wherever player characters meet, someone will want to buy or sell such items. What the players do among themselves is their business, in most cases; but when non-player characters (NPC) are involved the GM must know where magic items come from, how rare they are, and how hard it is to produce them. [Quoting myself from 40+ years ago]

Magimart: Still a Bad Idea​

I don't like the idea of "Magimarts" -- something like a bookstore or small department store, often with a public storefront, where adventurers can come and purchase (or sell) magic items. I said as much over 40 years ago in an article titled “Magimart: Buying and Selling Magic Items” in White Dwarf magazine. My point then still stands: at least for me and in my games, magic-selling stores don’t make sense.

They don’t make sense from a design point of view, as they may unbalance a campaign or cause power-creep. From an adventure point of view such stores partly eliminates the need to quest for specific powerful magic items. From a realistic point of view they would only provide targets for those who are happy to steal.

The Design Point of View​

From a game design point of view, how experience points, gold, and magic fit together makes a big difference. For example, if you get experience points for selling a magic item (even to NPCs), as well as for the gold you get, adventurers will sell magic items more often. If adventurers acquire scads of treasure and have nothing (such as taxes or “training”) to significantly reduce their fortunes, then big-time magic items are going to cost an awful lot of money, but some will be bought. If gold is in short supply (as you’d expect in anything approaching a real world) then anyone with a whole lot of gold might be able to buy big-time magic items.

Long campaigns need a way for magic items to change ownership, other than theft. As an RPG player I like to trade magic items to other characters in return for other magic items. But there are no “magic stores.” Usability is a big part of it: if my magic user has a magic sword that a fighter wants, he might trade me an item that I could use as a magic user. (Some campaigns allocate found magic items only to characters who can use them. We just dice for selecting the things (a sort of draft) and let trading sort it out, much simpler and less likely to lead to argument about who can use/who needs what.)

The Adventure Point of Views​

Will magic stores promote enjoyable adventuring? It depends on the style of play, but for players primarily interested in challenging adventures, they may not want to be able to go into a somehow-invulnerable magic store and buy or trade for what they want.

Magic-selling stores remind me of the question “why do dungeons exist”. A common excuse (not reason) is “some mad (and very powerful) wizard made it.” Yeah, sure. Excuses for magic-selling stores need to be even wilder than that!

I think of magic-item trading and selling amongst characters as a kind of secretive black market. Yes, it may happen, but each transaction is fraught with opportunities for deceit. Perhaps like a black market for stolen diamonds? This is not something you’re likely to do out in the open, nor on a regular mass basis.

The Realistic Point of View​

“Why do you rob banks?” the thief is asked. “’Cause that’s where the money is.”
Realistically, what do you think will happen if someone maintains a location containing magic items on a regular basis? Magimarts are a major flashpoint in the the dichotomy between believability (given initial assumptions of magic and spell-casting) and "Rule of Cool" ("if it's cool, it's OK").

In most campaigns, magic items will be quite rare. Or magic items that do commonplace things (such as a magic self-heating cast iron pan) may be common but the items that are useful in conflict will be rare. After all, if combat-useful magic items are commonplace, why would anyone take the risk of going into a “dungeon” full of dangers to find some? (Would dungeon-delving become purely a non-magical treasure-hunting activity if magic items are commonplace?)

And for the villains, magimarts seem like an easy score. If someone is kind enough to gather a lot of magic items in a convenient, known place, why not steal those rather than go to a lot of time and effort, risk and chance, to explore dungeons and ruins for items? There may be lots of money there as well!

When Magimarts Make Sense​

If your campaign is one where magic is very common, then magic shops may make sense - though only for common stuff, not for rare/powerful items. And magic-selling stores can provide reasons for adventures:
  • Find the kidnapped proprietor who is the only one who can access all that magic.
  • Be the guards for a magic store.
  • Chase down the crooks who stole some or all of the magic from the store.
Maybe a clever proprietor has figured out a way to make the items accessible only to him or her. But some spells let a caster take over the mind of the victim, and can use the victim to access the items. And if someone is so powerful that he or she can protect a magic store against those who want to raid it, won't they likely have better/more interesting things to do with their time? (As an aside, my wife points out that a powerful character might gather a collection of magic items in the same way that a rich person might gather a collection of artworks. But these won’t be available to “the public” in most cases. Still just as some people rob art museums, some might rob magic collections.)

Of course, any kind of magic trading offers lots of opportunities for deception. You might find out that the sword you bought has a curse, or that the potion isn’t what it’s supposed to be. Many GMs ignore this kind of opportunity and let players buy and sell items at standard prices without possibility of being bilked. Fair enough, it’s not part of the core adventure/story purposes of RPGs. And magic stores are a cheap way for a GM to allow trade in magic items.

Your Turn: What part do magic-selling stores play in your games?
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

Staffan

Legend
Actually, no. Especially when it comes to potions and scrolls, there is no particular reason to think that they are more transactional in 3e than in 1e/2e. And indeed, there is good reason to think they are less transactional. That's because unlike 1e/2e, minor items like potions and scrolls required the investment of a non-commodity item, namely "experience points". That items in 3e require experience points to create means that making them is a serious endeavor and there is an inherit limit on their production because each one is trading a bit of your life away.
The XP needed is fairly miniscule, and anything that translates XP into in-fiction stuff is fraught with danger. I figure professional item crafters have ways around that, or do enough work to earn it back. But your point is taken.

Also, as you mention later, AD&D permanent item creation cost you a point of Constitution. That's a much bigger price to pay than almost any amount of XP.
Things that you mention like "you needed to figure out how to make each individual item type, which would require long and expensive research and/or the use of dangerous magic like contact other plane. And once you had that figured out, you needed to acquire various more or less exotic ingredients, ranging from something relatively mundane like troll's blood to something esoteric like the dreams of an illithid. In other words, creating a magic item in 2e was likely to be the focus of not just one but several adventures all by itself" is actually implicitly built into the 3e system as well. The gold required to acquire those exotic ingredients like troll's blood or displacer beast hide is what the 3e system is describing in the abstract. Third edition assumes there exists a trade in exotic ingredients and crafting recipes for magical ink and potions and that the cost to make an item is abstractly representing obtaining those ingredients like blue dragon's bile or tiger hearts on the open market.
But there's nothing in the 3e rules that says that that is the kind of stuff you need. It just says you need "raw materials" worth half the item's base price. There's no indication whatsoever that these things are hard to find, beyond the price itself. And in reverse, there's nothing in AD&D that indicates what sort of gold price would be appropriate for various items, which to me indicates that it's not stuff found on the open market.

There's also absolutely nothing in 3e that says you need to spend effort, beyond the feats involved, to learn the recipes for making magic items, or that you need particular methods or locations (e.g. forging it in the heart of a volcano) – it specifically says that any place that's suitable for preparing spells is also suitable for crafting items.
 

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Stormonu

NeoGrognard
But there's nothing in the 3e rules that says that that is the kind of stuff you need. It just says you need "raw materials" worth half the item's base price. There's no indication whatsoever that these things are hard to find, beyond the price itself. And in reverse, there's nothing in AD&D that indicates what sort of gold price would be appropriate for various items, which to me indicates that it's not stuff found on the open market.
Like hp, 3E was pretty nebulous about the actual activity going on. There were some systems in the Complete and other splatbooks that went into depth as I recall, but I think it's reasonable to assume that plunking down 18,000 gp involved more than just getting a lump of common iron to hammer out a magic sword. It was all just sort of handwaved as downtime/background activity between the meat of adventuring.

I mean, I don't think we signed up to play Paper & Paychecks and while away hours obsessing over what's involved to create a magic sword vs. putting its pointy end in the dragon in the nearby Delve.
 

Starfox

Hero
Actually, the xp cost can be quite sufficient, if you're playing the team mage and enchanter, making items for the entire team. By the rules of 3E, if you lag one level behind, you get a lot of compensation. Its worth it.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Actually, the xp cost can be quite sufficient, if you're playing the team mage and enchanter, making items for the entire team. By the rules of 3E, if you lag one level behind, you get a lot of compensation. Its worth it.
Yeah, a lot of people didn't seem to understand how 3e was designed to not let you fall very far behind, or as I heard it put once, "xp is a river". Which is why all the Feats that reduced the costs for making magic items always raised an eyebrow, because they were completely unnecessary. It's bad enough you're basically doubling your Wealth by Level (and don't get me started on the Artificer, who not only got their "crafting reserve", but could break down unwanted items or even magical traps to replenish said reserve! I really liked the original Artificer, but I can't even argue against how busted it was in actual play, even without "custom items"...brr.).
 



Celebrim

Legend
The XP needed is fairly miniscule, and anything that translates XP into in-fiction stuff is fraught with danger.

It adds up more than you might think. I've had players from other tables complain that the magic mart was essential because without it, Wizards would have to burn so much XP that they would be a level behind the other classes at some point. I'm not sympathetic. Being able to choose your equipment is such a massive advantage that a party that has that advantage is effectively a level higher than one without it.

I figure professional item crafters have ways around that, or do enough work to earn it back.

It makes for very interesting world building if professional item crafters have figured out ways to reduce XP costs - doing your work under auspices astronomical signs, on certain special days on the calendar, in front of pious worshipers, stealing life and blood from others, making sacrifices, and so forth.

Also, as you mention later, AD&D permanent item creation cost you a point of Constitution. That's a much bigger price to pay than almost any amount of XP.

Absolutely. The penalty in AD&D was so great that it made no sense under the given rules why any swords +1 existed in the game universe. At least in 3e there is some reason to think that if you offered a craft enough money, they'd be willing to make one for you.

It just says you need "raw materials" worth half the item's base price. There's no indication whatsoever that these things are hard to find, beyond the price itself.

I think that the price itself is a strong indicator that the ingredients are hard to find. These are implied to be rare metals, gemstones, arcane reagents, rare spices and incense, and so forth.

And in reverse, there's nothing in AD&D that indicates what sort of gold price would be appropriate for various items, which to me indicates that it's not stuff found on the open market.

Maybe, but we did get an example recipe for a scroll of protection from petrification:

1 oz giant squid sepia (standard ingredient in all spell scrolls!)
1 basilisk eye (special ingredient)
3 cockatrice features (special ingredient)
1 scruple of venom from a medusa's snakes (special ingredient)
1 large peridot (commodity)
1 medium topaz (commodity)
2 drams of holy water (commodity)
6 pumpkin seeds (commodity)

The commodity ingredients are not that different from the sort of things you'd expect to be material spell components, and these seemed to be wildly agreed to be available for purchase from the dealers in such things in larger towns. The special ingredients imply a vigorous trade in monster parts could be engaged in by adventurers, and so you as an adventuring spellcaster or would be adventuring entrepreneur had good reasons to sample and store bits and pieces of any monster you killed in the hopes it would be useful later. It's not hard to imagine that the same sort of places selling live spiders to wizards, bits of cobweb, Sulphur and bat dung, can also supply pumpkin seeds and perhaps cockatrice feathers, lion's hearts, sweat from a fire giant, or troll's blood or that if you brought in a load of cockatrice features, gargoyle horns, or vials of ogre magi blood that someone would be willing to buy them.

A description of the basic formula for concocting a potion on page 116 of the 1e DMG should look familiar to any 3rd player, and the purpose of "the special ingredient" seems to be to allow the DM to cap and adjust which potions can be manufactured, but would otherwise be included in the formula for cost and time to manufacture. The above recipe is implied by the text to be exceptionally complex, as other text suggests it's normal to just have one or two special ingredients.

it specifically says that any place that's suitable for preparing spells is also suitable for crafting items.

Yes and no. The actual enchanting process can be done anywhere you can prepare and cast spells, but each enchanted item requires a masterwork version of the item be specially prepared and that requires a workshop and suitable tools if you are to do the work yourself for most craft skills. Additionally, the different feats add additional restrictions. For example, Craft Magical Armor also requires a character have "a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools" and Brew Potion requires "a level working surface and at least a few containers in which to mix liquids, as well as a source of heat to boil the brew". In both cases a small workshop is implied by the text, though 3e generally leaves this up to the GM and does go the opposite direction of the 1e text in encouraging would be crafters rather than discouraging them.

But the point I'm making here is that as I read the 3e text I read rules that actually support the world as described by 1e AD&D play, which is not the world described by the 1e AD&D rules. What I don't read is a world that has magic marts in it either by necessity or inevitable logic. And I do think both worlds end up with dealers in magical goods being more likely to have a jar of cockatrice feathers or a vial of troll's blood on hand than they are to have a Quiver of Ehlonna or a Girdle of Giant's strength for sale. Again, under both rules, I see a world where it's much more likely that the ingredients to casting spells or making magic items are commoditized than the magic items themselves. And that's how I've always played D&D from pretty much the day I read the 1e DMG.
 
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Staffan

Legend
It adds up more than you might think. I've had players from other tables complain that the magic mart was essential because without it, Wizards would have to burn so much XP that they would be a level behind the other classes at some point. I'm not sympathetic. Being able to choose your equipment is such a massive advantage that a party that has that advantage is effectively a level higher than one without it.
As Starfox and James Gasik mentioned, being a level behind is a temporary problem, because that means you will get more XP than your companions. But yes, being able to make items at a discount is a massive advantage. As I recall, Paizo eventually came out with soft errata for Pathfinder 1 where they said that characters with item creation feats should be limited to no more than a certain percentage over the normal wealth-by-level guidelines, and if they wanted to make items for the rest of the party that had to come out of the same allotment. That always struck me as bovine excrement, but it does show a recognition that creating items as needed is a powerful ability.
I think that the price itself is a strong indicator that the ingredients are hard to find. These are implied to be rare metals, gemstones, arcane reagents, rare spices and incense, and so forth.
To me, the high price combined with the lack of rules of availability indicates that yes, it is expensive, but it is primarily a matter of expensive commodities. Getting the stuff isn't hard, just expensive.

I believe Keith Baker once opined that in Eberron, the cost was primarily Eberron dragonshards which he likened to oil in their ability to supercharge the magical economy.
The commodity ingredients are not that different from the sort of things you'd expect to be material spell components, and these seemed to be wildly agreed to be available for purchase from the dealers in such things in larger towns. The special ingredients imply a vigorous trade in monster parts could be engaged in by adventurers, and so you as an adventuring spellcaster or would be adventuring entrepreneur had good reasons to sample and store bits and pieces of any monster you killed in the hopes it would be useful later. It's not hard to imagine that the same sort of places selling live spiders to wizards, bits of cobweb, Sulphur and bat dung, can also supply pumpkin seeds and perhaps cockatrice feathers, lion's hearts, sweat from a fire giant, pr troll's blood or that if you brought in a load of cockatrice features, gargoyle horns, or vials of ogre magi blood that someone would be willing to buy them.
The obvious question would be "so, can my PC field strip all the monsters we kill and bring the stuff home as extra treasure/components?" Which reminds me, I think Hackmaster did include that as a section in their monster descriptions.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
As Starfox and James Gasik mentioned, being a level behind is a temporary problem, because that means you will get more XP than your companions. But yes, being able to make items at a discount is a massive advantage. As I recall, Paizo eventually came out with soft errata for Pathfinder 1 where they said that characters with item creation feats should be limited to no more than a certain percentage over the normal wealth-by-level guidelines, and if they wanted to make items for the rest of the party that had to come out of the same allotment. That always struck me as bovine excrement, but it does show a recognition that creating items as needed is a powerful ability.

To me, the high price combined with the lack of rules of availability indicates that yes, it is expensive, but it is primarily a matter of expensive commodities. Getting the stuff isn't hard, just expensive.

I believe Keith Baker once opined that in Eberron, the cost was primarily Eberron dragonshards which he likened to oil in their ability to supercharge the magical economy.

The obvious question would be "so, can my PC field strip all the monsters we kill and bring the stuff home as extra treasure/components?" Which reminds me, I think Hackmaster did include that as a section in their monster descriptions.
Well recall that Pathfinder took out the xp costs for crafting and replaced it with die rolls. Die rolls that could be optimized fairly easily. So suddenly, you have a situation where you went from a minor check on item creation to not having that check on item creation. Oops!

However, having run games with item crafters, I can tell you the real check on crafting isn't xp or money. It's time. Even with Pathfinder allowing some crafting while adventuring, you're going to occasionally want to take some downtime to get big projects done.

Downtime that can very well leave the rest of the party with nothing to do. The last time this came up in a game I was running, the crafter hid himself away in the inn for a few days, and next thing we all knew, the other players were trying to have a solo adventure.

"So wait, I'm sitting here making items for these guys, and they're going to earn xp without me? How is that fair?"
 

Celebrim

Legend
The obvious question would be "so, can my PC field strip all the monsters we kill and bring the stuff home as extra treasure/components?"

Yes. That would be very true to how 1e was often played. Even in the 1e Monster Manual the treasure of many monsters were their eggs or young if you were capable of transporting them.

Which reminds me, I think Hackmaster did include that as a section in their monster descriptions.

In an ideal world for me, all monster manuals would include the price of the carcass, hide, etc.
 

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