D&D 5E Why is There No Warlord Equivalent in 5E?

[pawsplay]

Armor Class is your meat threshold. If you take damage, you lose meat, but not in any specific, literal amount of meat.

 

[James Gasik]

The damage types thing is a real problem though, as is the larger issue of things doing different amounts of damage at all. That just makes no sense if nothing connects. It's an awful big part of the combat rules to only be concerned with .01% of hit points.

Certainly, D&D isn't built around the idea that a gout of acid to the face is going to melt you like that poor SOB in Robocop. Unless the acid kills you, then the DM will happily provide the gruesome details.

Here's the thing- it's only a problem if you want D&D to have that kind of gritty detail. By and large it doesn't have that gritty detail on purpose- it's a fantasy game about small groups of "heroes" (using the term loosely) going into dangerous places, fighting deadly monsters, facing hazardous environments and lethal traps, and probably surviving to do it again next session!

Characters have generally two states in combat. Up and fighting and...not. The game only occasionally introduces lingering effects, like being turned to stone or having your maximum hit points reduced (a mechanic that I really hate because while it is a elegant threading of the needle to still have "life drain" effects, still smacks of metagame thinking to me). Disease wasn't a big deal in 3e, and it's not a big deal in 5e (ironically, it was a lot more dangerous in 4e)- at least as a long-term condition. Short term, being poisoned for hours by fighting giant rats really sucks, but you're going to shake that disease super fast- the last time I fought a Mummy, the Cleric had that Mummy Rot dealt with so fast my head spun, lol.

If this doesn't make narrative sense, and the idea of most things being a "near miss", with injuries being cinematic with John Wick losing gallons of blood and still killing people like they're 4e Minions, and that bothers you, I'm sympathetic, but this is the game D&D is. And, I mean, is anyone saying that most peole don't like it that way?

That's not me saying "it's popular, so it's good"- that's a total drek argument. It's simply me saying, if most people wanted a grittier game, either they'd be playing the games that are, or convinced WotC that's the game they want to be playing by now.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Certainly, D&D isn't built around the idea that a gout of acid to the face is going to melt you like that poor SOB in Robocop. Unless the acid kills you, then the DM will happily provide the gruesome details.

Here's the thing- it's only a problem if you want D&D to have that kind of gritty detail. By and large it doesn't have that gritty detail on purpose- it's a fantasy game about small groups of "heroes" (using the term loosely) going into dangerous places, fighting deadly monsters, facing hazardous environments and lethal traps, and probably surviving to do it again next session!

Characters have generally two states in combat. Up and fighting and...not. The game only occasionally introduces lingering effects, like being turned to stone or having your maximum hit points reduced (a mechanic that I really hate because while it is a elegant threading of the needle to still have "life drain" effects, still smacks of metagame thinking to me). Disease wasn't a big deal in 3e, and it's not a big deal in 5e (ironically, it was a lot more dangerous in 4e)- at least as a long-term condition. Short term, being poisoned for hours by fighting giant rats really sucks, but you're going to shake that disease super fast- the last time I fought a Mummy, the Cleric had that Mummy Rot dealt with so fast my head spun, lol.

If this doesn't make narrative sense, and the idea of most things being a "near miss", with injuries being cinematic with John Wick losing gallons of blood and still killing people like they're 4e Minions, and that bothers you, I'm sympathetic, but this is the game D&D is. And, I mean, is anyone saying that most peole don't like it that way?

That's not me saying "it's popular, so it's good"- that's a total drek argument. It's simply me saying, if most people wanted a grittier game, either they'd be playing the games that are, or convinced WotC that's the game they want to be playing by now.

I do want a grittier game, of course (at this point I think everyone on the site knows what i want), but the issue here is one of logic, not necessarily grit. Why do things do different amounts and/or different types of damage in a way that obviously is a nod to the nature of the damage source, if nothing connects because hit points are non-physical? If the answer is, "because it's cool to imagine these things matter, so we pretend that they do", then for Gygax's sake just say that! Stop pretending there's anything more to it.

 

[Undrave]

and you don't need a higher dex as much because you can use focused aim

Focused Aim didn't exist when I played my Monk. Higher DEX also means extra damage.

At early levels I used Ki primarily for Patient Defense (which fixes the AC issue), then in tier 2 add in stunning strike and subclass abilities. Ki still in short supply for a while in tier 2, but it gets better the further you go. Once you get to 10th level or so you have a ton of Ki and don't run out easily unless you are just wasting it.

Yeah and using Ki for Patient Defense SUCKS. It brings you up to the level of AC other classes get for free (literally, because you can get armour and shield as your stating equipment!) and fails to advance the game state. Spending a resource should make you win faster, not delay your defeat, i just doesn't feel good.

I have seen several monks in play and they rocked. That does not mean there is room for improvement (see 2024 monk), but for how many people the monk works. Ki is not more of a problem than spell slots.

I've played Clerics and Warlocks at low level and using a Spell Slot can have a WAY bigger impact than spending a single Ki point. If you drop Sleep on the right group of enemies, or drop a Bless on your team mates or a Shield of Faith, it has way more of an impact than bloody Patient Defense.

5e monk is underwhelming, specially in tier1 and 2 where most games are played. Too few ki points. Weak defense. Serious MAD ( dex/wis/con). They are ment as your quick hit and run fighters. But if you want to hit and run without enemy hiting back, you need to spend ki and you cant use flurry (which also uses ki, but it also uses bonus action). Rogue is better highly mobile hit and run class since he can do his big hit ( sneak attack) and run (cunning action) without resource expenditure. Oh, and unarmed damage scailing sucks. It should start with d6 and go to at least 2d6.

You get it!

Obviously we're getting WAY off topic with the Monk talk here so I don't mind if we drop it for the moment. Clearly others are satisfied with it but I find it frustrating and unfulfilling outside of a few specific scenarios.

It matters because its iconic.

Even in 4e, using Commander's Strike was not something you did all the time. It was good to have it available, but it wasn't universally the best move. I don't think Warlord fans would mind if it was situational, as long as it's available.

Like this:
View attachment 362256

Well he is a 'Bard' that never uses Magic. He's either a Mastermind Rogue with the Entertainer background or a Warlord with a Criminal background

 

[James Gasik]

I do want a grittier game, of course (at this point I think everyone on the site knows what i want), but the issue here is one of logic, not necessarily grit. Why do things do different amounts and/or different types of damage in a way that obviously is a nod to the nature of the damage source, if nothing connects because hit points are non-physical? If the answer is, "because it's cool to imagine these things matter, so we pretend that they do", then for Gygax's sake just say that! Stop pretending there's anything more to it.

First I have to ask, who is pretending that there is anything more to it? D&D is just rules for playing fun games. If they don't make fun games for someone, then change them. Or find better rules (here, I'll make the obligatory plug for you).

Second, "pretend" is kind of the point of D&D isn't it? Everything is us pretending that something is something it isn't. I pretend to be a Barbarian. I pretend to be hit by an arrow. I say "urgh?!" as I'm struck by the pretend arrow, pretending to be in pain. I pretend I'm bleeding, I pretend I'm pulling the arrow out.

The rules don't force me to do any of that, nor should they, in my opinion- players should be roleplaying these things on their own! A game that tells you how to play and enforces it with rules might not be fun for some people.

Heck, isn't that why 5e is constantly saying "hey, the rules are just guidelines, man, ignore 'em, change 'em, it's your game!" (which I think is kind of silly, I don't really need expensive books to tell me I can make things up, but whatever, this is where we are).

If it bothers you that people aren't roleplaying acid burns correctly- talk to the players! If they say "well I don't because I need something to tell me that I've been burned beyond just erasing some hit points", I'd scratch my head and be like "well if you really really want a system that lets you know you've got an acid burn, I could make one, but I don't think you'll like it!" (and I can tell you from experience that, no, they did not, lol).

But given my dubious opinion of 5e overall, I have to say, not having those kinds of rules by default is probably a good thing. That way leads to a style of gaming that isn't a good fit for me, where you have to track wounds that can't be healed the same way as your hit points, vitality or stamina points, death spirals, crippling debilitating injuries that leave the DM saying "three weeks go by as you heal" which isn't really any more interesting than handing the Cleric some diamond dust and having him cast a Restoration spell or whatever on me.

But! If that's the exact playstyle someone else wants, as long as everyone is having fun, absolutely! And maybe the DMG should present rules for that sort of thing. But having played games where that sort of thing was the default, like Runequest, I'm going to say...not really what I'm looking for as the default.

 

[James Gasik]

Focused Aim didn't exist when I played my Monk. Higher DEX also means extra damage.

Yeah and using Ki for Patient Defense SUCKS. It brings you up to the level of AC other classes get for free (literally, because you can get armour and shield as your stating equipment!) and fails to advance the game state. Spending a resource should make you win faster, not delay your defeat, i just doesn't feel good.

I've played Clerics and Warlocks at low level and using a Spell Slot can have a WAY bigger impact than spending a single Ki point. If you drop Sleep on the right group of enemies, or drop a Bless on your team mates or a Shield of Faith, it has way more of an impact than bloody Patient Defense.

You get it!

Obviously we're getting WAY off topic with the Monk talk here so I don't mind if we drop it for the moment. Clearly others are satisfied with it but I find it frustrating and unfulfilling outside of a few specific scenarios.

Even in 4e, using Commander's Strike was not something you did all the time. It was good to have it available, but it wasn't universally the best move. I don't think Warlord fans would mind if it was situational, as long as it's available.


Well he is a 'Bard' that never uses Magic. He's either a Mastermind Rogue with the Entertainer background or a Warlord with a Criminal background

Or more likely, they decided that Bard magic isn't flashy because it's not all fireballs and lightning bolts and just decided his "cheerleading" has a magical effect or something. I imagine at one point they thought about using CGI to have glowing musical notes suspended in the air to show what his Bardic magic looked like, and probably felt it looked too strange or (dare I say it? I dare!) "like a video game".

 

[Mephista]

Name a poison that causes debilitating injury in <6 seconds and then doesn't have any further complications whatsoever--not six seconds later, not six minutes later, not six hours later, six days, nothing.

Clearly, the drow-made poison that exists in the fantasy world of D&D does it. We know for a fact it works by entering the bloodstream - one of the supplements flat out said it. And it deals poison damage on the hit. Pure poison damage can be used to knock someone below 0 HP in 6 seconds and force them to make death saving throws. Fantasy poison is FAST.

If you want something else, how about Heat Metal? Its dealing fire damage as long as its skin contact - ie its literally burning your flesh. That's meat damage. It can't really represent you dodging - The fire damage represents you cooking in your own armor or grasping your weapon, dodging isn't possible in these cases. I mean, we have damage types for a reason - fire damage represents literal burning.

Cure Wounds operates on the principle that its fixing wounds that a character took. Its kind of in the name.

Edit:
And, more importantly, I did not say they could not ever even potentially contain the tiniest amount of meat.

The folks claiming they are meat 99.99% of the time, though? They are arguing that HP are 100% always, exclusively meat. That it's not possible for hit points to be ANYTHING but meat.

How odd. I don't recall saying you by name. And certainly, there was someone earlier who said something to the effect that HP damage wasn't meat on a PC until you're near 0, and I don't really care to go back and look to see who exactly it was. And then adding in some strawmen to attack! Last I checked, no one here was "all meat, all the time!"

 

[Shardstone]

I'm sorry but the meat points vs not meat points argument is so stupid. HP is clearly meant to be a flexible idea, and you can make each instance of HP interaction meat points or something else, and that's a feature not a bug.

 

[Undrave]

Or more likely, they decided that Bard magic isn't flashy because it's not all fireballs and lightning bolts and just decided his "cheerleading" has a magical effect or something. I imagine at one point they thought about using CGI to have glowing musical notes suspended in the air to show what his Bardic magic looked like, and probably felt it looked too strange or (dare I say it? I dare!) "like a video game".

They also probably didn't want to have too many magical characters either. It's not like I'm complaining or anything.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Variance is fine so long as it doent make players feel weak. That is a vibe that can ruin enjoyment, according to surveys.

Its a common complaint with Commander stirke.

People asked why the balance was considered "difficult" with granting attacks. These are the common answers I've run into. If you don't agree, feel free to try it out yourself.

My answers are based on others' subjective experiences after all.

Variance matters, but I don't see it mattering as much with my version as it does with the incredibly limited version given through Commander's Strike. The point is not to create complete equity in experience for a power, but to at least have some solid baseline, and the most basic of attacks (Cantrips for casters, multiple attacks for martials) is what we are looking for. That seems a simple enough foundation to move from.

As it stands, I think simply motioning to the vague worry about variance is less important than looking at the variance we can observe and seeing how we can limit it. I'm fairly confident in my suggestion as is in this regard.

Focused Aim didn't exist when I played my Monk. Higher DEX also means extra damage.

Yeah and using Ki for Patient Defense SUCKS. It brings you up to the level of AC other classes get for free (literally, because you can get armour and shield as your stating equipment!) and fails to advance the game state. Spending a resource should make you win faster, not delay your defeat, i just doesn't feel good.

Patient defense is frustrating because Rogues can just do that. Right now the biggest problem for resource martials is that their resources are incredibly limited, especially for naughty word that certain other classes can simply do. Like, imagine if Rogues had a pool of resources and could only activate Sneak Attack or Cunning Action by using a resource from the pool: that would suck, and that's how the monk works.

The stinginess in which Wizards gives martials resources is one of the most frustrating problems to deal with.

I've played Clerics and Warlocks at low level and using a Spell Slot can have a WAY bigger impact than spending a single Ki point. If you drop Sleep on the right group of enemies, or drop a Bless on your team mates or a Shield of Faith, it has way more of an impact than bloody Patient Defense.

Yeah, and those will actually last! Sure, you can recharge your Ki in 30 minutes, but that ruins the speed of play. Again, all the stuff there might work if you could just do some of it. It's why the Shadow Monk is such a great archetype: it's big power is not tied to ki at all and is just something they can do, so they always feel special even when they don't have ki.