D&D 5E Why Don't Barbarians or Fighters Get Bonus Skills?

[Obryn]

[MENTION=11821]Obryn[/MENTION] You have not said why Fighters and Barbarians are "athletic" characters.
I'll say it one last time - tie skills into Backgrounds, leave the core class out of it. Not one skill says "Hey, all Fighters would have this", nor by extension a group of skills that suggest "Hey, most Fighters will know these."

I didn't say why they are athletic because I think it's obvious. They did not become the paragons of combat by being couch potatoes, and must stay fit to do what they do.

If nobody got bonus skills, that's be okay. But that's not what's here. I'm saying, "Pick one skill: survival, endurance, climb, swim, ride" to cover the bases, acknowledge fighters' training and athleticism, and finally give them more non-combat roles.

 

[Manbearcat]

I didn't say why they are athletic because I think it's obvious. They did not become the paragons of combat by being couch potatoes, and must stay fit to do what they do.

If nobody got bonus skills, that's be okay. But that's not what's here. I'm saying, "Pick one skill: survival, endurance, climb, swim, ride" to cover the bases, acknowledge fighters' training and athleticism, and finally give them more non-combat roles.

Exactly. What could be more obvious? Sometimes I wonder if some of the people writing these things have had little to no martial enterprise in their lives because the overlap in skill-set is in the extreme; not just in the everyday training but in the inevitable lifestyle that stems from it.

Are you an athlete? Yes? You almost inevitably have a natural acumen for tasks requiring coordination, burst strength, balance, endurance. You have likely learned to climb, swim, balance under difficult circumstances, jump high and far, run fast and long, endure physical punishment.

You can extend that to professional soldier, street tough/thug, professional fighter, and any other martial discipline. The idea that people whose lives have been saturated by martial enterprise, and the inevitable culture that inextricably comes with it, are somehow one-trick ponies is absurd and is in complete denial of reality.

 

[JamesonCourage]

I don't think that any classes should be given specific skills to choose from, really. Maybe really focused archetypes, but not wide ones (fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric). Rogue getting a couple extra skills? Fine, but don't make them choose from a list. Getting rid of class skills is my preference, and an extra skill or four from a specific list for a class? Definitely a class skill system. Not my cup of tea anymore. As always, play what you like

 

[Sekhmet]

@Obryn Even before my military training, I was into martial arts. I've spent a great portion of my life learning and practicing, and even on this board it's been suggested that I'd be a level 2 pugilist of some form (Monk or Fighter).
To become a better Fighter, you swing your sword a few hundred more times. You practice tripping, blocking, and dodging in combat. If I want to become a better pugilist, I spar with other people around my skill level.
Climbing trees and swimming don't help me. Riding horses doesn't do anything for me.

All the exercise a person needs is in hand to hand combat. It's an exhausting cardio workout. No other forms of athleticism are tied into it, and none benefit it. You get fit and you stay fit by practicing combat every day.

I am not a varied athlete because I practice martial arts. I don't climb, ride, swim, jump or otherwise utilize skills because I practice martial arts. My skill list would likely contain various Knowledges, Professions, Bluff, Tumble, and Climb.

If you can explain to me how you feel each of the following skills relate to Fighters, I will concede my argument. Give specific examples of why a Fighter should be skilled in these.
Climb, Drive, Handle Animal, Knowledge (warfare), Ride, Spot, or Swim.

As it stands, your argument is effectively "I'm an avid football player, so I obviously know how to climb rocks, spot strange things, train dogs in warfare, and ride horses."

 

[Obryn]

As it stands, your argument is effectively "I'm an avid football player, so I obviously know how to climb rocks, spot strange things, train dogs in warfare, and ride horses."

...no, no it's not.

And this isn't about your personal experience. This is about fictional characters in a fantasy world, some of whom can call creatures from the outer planes to carry out their will. If Fighters are going to be Mundane Guy, they should be given the tools to actually be Mundane Guy. That includes a breadth of skills such as you'd find in any movie or novel where you'd want to call someone a "FIGHTER."

As it stands, if a Fighter is going to be competent at stuff like swimming, climbing, etc. he needs to spend his Background on that and ... well, that's all he's really good at. Just like poor old 2-skill-point Redgar in 3e. If two guys are trying to climb a cliff face, one a Fighter and one a Cleric, with similar strength, the Fighter should have the leg up.

Second, it's about some semblance of sanity about classes. If we have three pillars, and we're taking this seriously, saying "Fighters are only good if there's a fight going on right now" is incredibly short-sighted.

As to your list - I am suggesting that, in the course of being a competent, well-rounded, athletic paragon of martial virtue, odds are they would have picked up something like this. Backgrounds give the same thing to everyone, and so far the Fighter and Barbarian are the only ones who wouldn't have picked up something else in the course of their work.

-O

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

If you can explain to me how you feel each of the following skills relate to Fighters, I will concede my argument. Give specific examples of why a Fighter should be skilled in these.
Climb, Drive, Handle Animal, Knowledge (warfare), Ride, Spot, or Swim.

Okay. First off, remember that all the classes in D&D (except 3e NPC classes) are ADVENTURING classes. A level 1 fighter is experienced enough at adventuring to feel confident walking into a crypt full of zombies. As such, he's probably spent a decent amount of time traversing the countryside as a hired sword, mercenary, or bandit- SWIMMING across rivers, CLIMBING steep slopes, RIDING and HANDLING his horse, maybe even DRIVING a cart if he's guarding a caravan. He's no stranger to standing watch, so he's good at SPOTTING enemies. And maybe he's worked as a mercenary in a battle or two; heck, perhaps he's even trained at a military academy, learning KNOWLEDGE about WARFARE.

Being a fighter (or, for that matter, a D&D monk) is nothing like being a modern martial-artist. It's a career, not a hobby, and it's one that takes you out into an unforgiving, undomesticated world where your ability to scale a cliff or ford a river or ride a horse would often be the only thing that'll get you to the next safe town before the sun sets and the ghost-zombie-goblins come out to eat your spleen - especially if you don't have powerful magical spells up your sleeve to protect you.

Is this the only archetype that fits the fighter class? No, but I'll give you a counter-proposal: name me a character that would take the fighter class and not be skilled in ANY of those things.

 

[Argyle King]

@Obryn Even before my military training, I was into martial arts. I've spent a great portion of my life learning and practicing, and even on this board it's been suggested that I'd be a level 2 pugilist of some form (Monk or Fighter).
To become a better Fighter, you swing your sword a few hundred more times. You practice tripping, blocking, and dodging in combat. If I want to become a better pugilist, I spar with other people around my skill level.
Climbing trees and swimming don't help me. Riding horses doesn't do anything for me.

All the exercise a person needs is in hand to hand combat. It's an exhausting cardio workout. No other forms of athleticism are tied into it, and none benefit it. You get fit and you stay fit by practicing combat every day.

I am not a varied athlete because I practice martial arts. I don't climb, ride, swim, jump or otherwise utilize skills because I practice martial arts. My skill list would likely contain various Knowledges, Professions, Bluff, Tumble, and Climb.

If you can explain to me how you feel each of the following skills relate to Fighters, I will concede my argument. Give specific examples of why a Fighter should be skilled in these.
Climb, Drive, Handle Animal, Knowledge (warfare), Ride, Spot, or Swim.

As it stands, your argument is effectively "I'm an avid football player, so I obviously know how to climb rocks, spot strange things, train dogs in warfare, and ride horses."

My experience prior to military training (and after) has been the complete opposite. I most certainly do believe there is overlap between what I did prior to service and what I did as a combat arms soldier; likewise, I also believe things I learned as part of my military training helped me elsewhere.

Spot makes a lot of sense to me as a skill for a fighter. One of the things which was pounded into my head the most at Benning was "attention to detail." Being able to perceive what is going on around you is a great skill to have in a combat situation. If we're talking melee fighting, being able to spot an opening in my opponent's style and technique -an opening I can exploit- is important too. Likewise, being able to see targets is a pretty good skill to have for ranged attacks. I grew up in a rural area; I did a lot of hunting, fishing, and hiking. A lot of the skills I used to hunt animals -spot in particular- were useful when it came to being a soldier; spot was especially useful because one of the things I learned was to spot the outline and shape of targets when dealing with a visual situation which was obscured by bad lighting, foliage, and etc. While, I suppose you could make the argument with that that I'd probably be classed as a ranger as a D&D character, and I wouldn't argue with that, I still would argue that spot (and being able to perceive what is going on around you) is a skill which is very useful to a soldier. Even today, I find that being able to pay attention to detail is a valuable skill; in terms of athletics, I can spot openings and opportunities to score points during a sporting event that other people may not notice.

Knowledge (warfare) is also something which I feel is an important skill, and for similar reasons to spot. Spot might be the ability to spot what is going on around you, but the ability to have a greater understanding of what is going on around you is important as well. "Ok, I see that the enemy is doing X; based on that, I believe they are attempting to flank us." Knowledge of strategy and tactics is a very important skill to have. How important it is to you is going to vary wildly depending upon your position and rank, but it is nevertheless important. Being able to implement and execute a strategy is the type of thing that can win wars. I also suspect that Knowledge (warfare) might be something which covers logistics as well. There are many famous sayings about logistics.

“The line between disorder and order lies in logistics…”
- Sun Tzu

“Leaders win through logistics. Vision, sure. Strategy, yes. But when you go to war, you need to have both toilet paper and bullets at the right place at the right time. In other words, you must win through superior logistics.”
- Tom Peters

Prior to my military service, I was heavily involved in a lot of team sports such as hockey and football. From a physical standpoint, I'd say those things helped me to be able to take the punishment involved with my military training. From a mental standpoint, I'd say I had a good foundation for learning tactics and strategy from having to learn various plays and on-field movements.

I'd buy the argument that Knowledge (warfare) would fall into the realm of Warlord if the game includes that class. Otherwise, it seems to fit the fighter.

Handle Animal and Ride both make sense to me because animals are the jeeps, tanks, and trucks of the D&D world. The three most important abilities for a military unit are their ability to shoot/fight, move, and communicate. Animals greatly enhance the ability to do one of those things -move. Depending upon the animal, they can also greatly enhance the ability to fight. Vehicles (which is what I'm viewing animals as for this) have the potential to be a combat multiplier. Genghis Khan conquered the world from horseback. Imagine if he had pegasi or dragons available to him. Mamluk lancers had great effect in their conflicts. Hannibal had elephants; imagine if he had trained groups of Owlbears. For similar reasons, Drive also makes sense to me.

Personally, I would prefer that class not be so heavily tied to skill. I liked the earlier idea that skill would be mostly influenced by background and theme. However, if we're going to tie skill to class in some way, having these skills be available to a fighter makes sense to me.

 

[GX.Sigma]

Okay. First off, remember that all the classes in D&D (except 3e NPC classes) are ADVENTURING classes. A level 1 fighter is experienced enough at adventuring to feel confident walking into a crypt full of zombies. As such, he's probably spent a decent amount of time traversing the countryside as a hired sword, mercenary, or bandit- SWIMMING across rivers, CLIMBING steep slopes, RIDING and HANDLING his horse, maybe even DRIVING a cart if he's guarding a caravan. He's no stranger to standing watch, so he's good at SPOTTING enemies. And maybe he's worked as a mercenary in a battle or two; heck, perhaps he's even trained at a military academy, learning KNOWLEDGE about WARFARE.

If those skills aren't directly related to being good at fighting, and are directly related to something else he's done in his past, they should be background skills.

Being a fighter (or, for that matter, a D&D monk) is nothing like being a modern martial-artist. It's a career, not a hobby, and it's one that takes you out into an unforgiving, undomesticated world where your ability to scale a cliff or ford a river or ride a horse would often be the only thing that'll get you to the next safe town before the sun sets and the ghost-zombie-goblins come out to eat your spleen - especially if you don't have powerful magical spells up your sleeve to protect you.

Because they're adventurers, they should be able to climb, ride, and spot? Sounds like every class should have access to those skills. Which they do. As part of the background system.

 

[Obryn]

If those skills aren't directly related to being good at fighting, and are directly related to something else he's done in his past, they should be background skills.Because they're adventurers, they should be able to climb, ride, and spot? Sounds like every class should have access to those skills. Which they do. As part of the background system.

And still, in the end, Fighters and Barbarians have fewer skills than the guy devoting all his time to religion because...?

-O

 

[GX.Sigma]

And still, in the end, Fighters and Barbarians have fewer skills than the guy devoting all his time to religion because...?

The guy devoting all his time to religion knows about religion. The guy devoting all his time to combat knows about combat.