OSR Why B/X?

[Warpiglet-7]

Fair enough. I never actually got to play 1st Edition. As a result, I may be selling it short.

Yeah…weird stuff from aliens to mind flayers. Odd technology, psionics and extra dimensional travel…it’s all there f you poke around a bit

 

[deganawida]

Yeah…weird stuff from aliens to mind flayers. Odd technology, psionics and extra dimensional travel…it’s all there f you poke around a bit

I might have missed it, as I also never played the modules, in any edition. I just had the impression from reading the Adventures in Greyhawk book that it was a medieval world with demons and magic and (shudder) drow, along with ancient artifacts and the Twin Catastrophes or whatever they were called. My ignorance is corrected, and apologies for any offense to anyone that I may have caused due to my previous statement.

 

[Voadam]

I agree with most of that, except: is there anything in B/X that is inherently more weird fiction than OD&D or AD&D?

Absolutely. Erol Otus art throughout the B/X core books. and not the Oe or 1e ones

 

[Reynard]

Absolutely. Erol Otus art throughout the B/X core books. and not the Oe or 1e ones

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I love Otis and generally agree that his art exudes Weird Fantasy, but you probably picked the 3 most mundane Otis images in the canon.

 

[Willie the Duck]

I agree with most of that, except: is there anything in B/X that is inherently more weird fiction than OD&D or AD&D?

Sure, but I don't see this being any different in OD&D and AD&D. I think both 2E and BECMI did reduce the inherent weirdness of D&D and pull it toward the more typical medieval romance/80s fantasy lit feel, but most of the weird you are talking about emerged from OD&D and AD&D. My B/X books don't actually include a lot of weird in and of themselves.

Never having been a fan of Greyhawk, I don't know how he "de-weirded" D&D to fit Greyhawk. However, I know that Golarion is largely inspired by Greyhawk by fans of Greyhawk and it is pretty weird.

Yeah…weird stuff from aliens to mind flayers. Odd technology, psionics and extra dimensional travel…it’s all there f you poke around a bit

I feel that in terms of the actual what's-placed-in-it they are very similar, with AD&D winning out a bit in that there's plenty of stuff (like mind flayers) that came into AD&D after it branched off from the basic/classic line, but less that counter-examples from the other side. Tonally (or as Voadam points out, artistically), I think there is something that B/X has that makes it feel moreso like what Deganawida was talking about. Probably in the empty space/absences. There's less discussion about building a working world, of limiting characters (from caster spell fizzling on hits to the 1e DMG admonitions against letting the Thief get away with anything like trying to climb wet surfaces), of grounding the game in a semblance of realism. It's all minor, arguable, and of course the two converged again as the Mentzer set added a bunch of analogue to what AD&D was doing (and the settings for each took off into the bizarre, with Gazateer-era Known World and AD&D settings like SpellJammer, Dark Sun, etc. took dialed all of this up to 11), but I do see what I think they mean.

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[Voadam]

I love Otis and generally agree that his art exudes Weird Fantasy, but you probably picked the 3 most mundane Otis images in the canon.

Different things strike people differently.

White apes who "have lost their color due to many years of living in caves" strike me as something that might be used in weird fiction and the picture is very Conan evocative to me, the kobold's flowing stone cavern background is pretty weird evocative for me, and the three wizards are super not heroic but weird.

 

[Reynard]

Different things strike people differently.

White apes who "have lost their color due to many years of living in
caves" strike me as something that might be used in weird fiction and the picture is very Conan evocative to me, the kobold's flowing flowin stone cavern background is pretty weird evocative for me, and the three wizards are super not heroic but weird.

I will give you that those wizards have a whiff of Vance about them, but I usually like my weird a little more in your face. Tower of the Elephant type stuff.

 

[Mannahnin]

Sure, but I don't see this being any different in OD&D and AD&D. I think both 2E and BECMI did reduce the inherent weirdness of D&D and pull it toward the more typical medieval romance/80s fantasy lit feel, but most of the weird you are talking about emerged from OD&D and AD&D. My B/X books don't actually include a lot of weird in and of themselves.

Never having been a fan of Greyhawk, I don't know how he "de-weirded" D&D to fit Greyhawk. However, I know that Golarion is largely inspired by Greyhawk by fans of Greyhawk and it is pretty weird.

I feel that in terms of the actual what's-placed-in-it they are very similar, with AD&D winning out a bit in that there's plenty of stuff (like mind flayers) that came into AD&D after it branched off from the basic/classic line, but less that counter-examples from the other side. Tonally (or as Voadam points out, artistically), I think there is something that B/X has that makes it feel moreso like what Deganawida was talking about. Probably in the empty space/absences. There's less discussion about building a working world, of limiting characters (from caster spell fizzling on hits to the 1e DMG admonitions against letting the Thief get away with anything like trying to climb wet surfaces), of grounding the game in a semblance of realism. It's all minor, arguable, and of course the two converged again as the Mentzer set added a bunch of analogue to what AD&D was doing (and the settings for each took off into the bizarre, with Gazateer-era Known World and AD&D settings like SpellJammer, Dark Sun, etc. took dialed all of this up to 11), but I do see what I think they mean.

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I can definitely see how OD&D partakes in and is the precursor for the weirdness of B/X. The point of differentiation there is that B/X is clearer and simpler and tastefully edited. Moldvay, Cook, and Marsh made some brilliant choices and did a great job. But both strongly support Weird.

I absolutely agree that AD&D went down the path of rationalizing things much more. The AD&D DMG is stuffed to overflowing with details trying to ground and limit and restrict and restrain, to categorize and organize and define. Look at the description of the ogre treasure hoard, or the details on how different monster or NPC lairs or settlements will defend themselves, the notes on taxing PCs' wealth to get gold out of their hands, or the bit Willie mentioned about Thieves skills- all the restrictions and caveats on Thieves actually being any good at their skills, all grounded in realism.

Greyhawk as a setting and certainly some of the modules in AD&D continue to be weird. But AD&D was all about rationalizing and circumscribing the game, and as such feels much more grounded, less open and free.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I might have missed it, as I also never played the modules, in any edition. I just had the impression from reading the Adventures in Greyhawk book that it was a medieval world with demons and magic and (shudder) drow, along with ancient artifacts and the Twin Catastrophes or whatever they were called. My ignorance is corrected, and apologies for any offense to anyone that I may have caused due to my previous statement.

Yeah the modules have a lot of weirdness for sure.

Greyhawk may be a little more medieval but then again I like that. Whenever the neighboring nation is led by and evil Demi god it is impactful

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I would say, yes, in that B/X doesn’t try to fit it into the world. It’s just weird, you know? Sometimes you come across bandits, and sometimes you come across weird things that want to eat your brains. It’s all in the life of an adventurer.

I guess it comes down, to me, with a problem of how Gygax wanted to codify and fit everything into his world as part of his world. Not everything in the real world makes sense.

I would say that OD&D, which includes monsters from Barsoom, and in which Gygax famously sent Nazi tanks against his players' characters, is probably weirder than BD&D.