Why all the hate for Turn Undead?

[The Shadow]

I love the idea of Turn Undead, I just don't think every cleric needs it or every god should grant it. Now, clerics of *some* faiths should indeed always have it auto-prepared. Some might even have it as a Channel Divinity use. But it just doesn't make much sense for all of them. Making it a spell was the right way to go.

This current iteration of the spell, though, seems really weak. I'm guessing that at some point the cleric will be able to cast it in higher-level slots to affect more powerful undead. I'd like to see it have *some* effect undead higher than the threshold, though. Maybe it makes them pause for a moment, or gives them disadvantage for a round, or something. (Should only work once in an encounter that way, though.) It makes little sense to me that any undead could just laugh off a divine ability specifically directed at them, just because they have 1 hit point more than the limit.

 

[CleverNickName]

I like turning the undead. I just prefer it as a spell, instead of a supernatural class ability. In my 3.5E game, the Turn Undead family of abilities (Turn, Rebuke, Bolster, Destroy, Control) are all 1st and 3rd level cleric and paladin spells.

I gave the same treatment to Bardic Music and Wild Shape, also. It's not that I hate the abilities themselves; they are just easier to use and manage when they are spells.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I don't know about the power of the spell, as it is early, and we haven't seen it used yet. I do know that I like it as a spell for the reasons that DefCon1 gave.

If the cleric was using the old casting style, I might like it less, since it would have to be slotted each day specifically. But as a spontaneous caster, I love it as a spell--especially with the domains given some free preparations.

 

[Lostdwarf]

I think making it a spell is rather brilliant. Making it a class feather is sort of like giving a fighter a class feature that only works against oozes. Brilliant if you are fighting and ooze, worthless if you are not. If you like to turn you can tuck it on your spell list, but if you don't meet any undead its another heal or a spiritual hammer instead.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Another thing about making it a spell is that then turn undead can benefit from the hinted changes about making spells scale by slot instead of caster level. What we are seeing in the current spell is no scaling, because they haven't introduced that mechanic. Once they do, it will probably be true that turn undead cast from a higher level slot will handle tougher undead, while the 1st level variety will continue to be limited to zombies and their ilk.

 

[howandwhy99]

Turn Undead (show the power of holy/unholy) is almost or as important as divine spell casting for the cleric class. Divine spells aren't really spells at all, but miracles performed with the power of the deity the cleric follows. Turn Undead is the archetypal "good" (or "evil") manifestation of that deity's power channeled through the cleric. It improves with the cleric's level which is a representation of the cleric's learning of the mystical rites, rituals, and practices of that belief. It's a measure of adherence to these, their knowledge, and most importantly the wise depths of seeing.

In mechanical terms, Turn Undead really deserves to be an at-will ability for the cleric as, like combat or magic for fighters or wizards, channeling forth the power of one's deity is a key ability for performing and getting XP in the class. Increasing power with level shouldn't be too difficult either.

The catch is how to make this ability powerful and a real choice without making certain encounters, combat or otherwise, pushovers for the cleric. I'd say 50/50 for the ratio of the level of the cleric to the level of a corresponding creature (or challenge) makes sense, just like combat. Items, powers, or other abilities that increase potency or number affected by Turn Undead should be considered as +1 or higher weapons. It's a big bonus, so permanently blessed holy symbols aren't cheap to come by and there's only one ark of the covenant.

For the playtest, my players didn't care for Turn Undead under the first iteration of the power, especially as what they considered a weak 1st level spell. I think it's better off considered a power at-will (call it minor if necessary) that's just as important as Detect Alignment is for paladins.

 

[The Shadow]

I think it's better off considered a power at-will (call it minor if necessary) that's just as important as Detect Alignment is for paladins.

*shudder* Sorry, up to this point I thought you were trying to argue that Turn Undead was important to clerics. Now you seem to be saying it should die in a fire, and the ashes poured into a Sphere of Annihilation, just to be sure.

Please do make up your mind.

In case the sarcasm isn't clear... I am so far from seeing Detect Alignment as central to the paladin that I would like to see the entire concept disappear from the game. I don't mind if paladins can detect fiends, undead, maybe even diabolical-pact warlocks and clerics of evil gods. But detecting people who simply have evil alignment really must go.

 

[howandwhy99]

So how to design a more playable version of Detect Alignment? Clearly it's important to the paladin class due to the paladin's code and the potential loss of the class by the character permanently, if they don't stay within the Lawful/Good alignment.

My suggestion is as I've suggested about a lot of things, make it a puzzle. Make detecting alignment via the power of one's deity something unique to both that deity and to that character. Alignment works similarly, so it really isn't about the alignment chart the DM is tracking characters (and other stuff) upon. It's about the deity (or principles) the paladin follows which determines what is detected, at least relative to whatever is being focused upon. All that kind of stuff is made up by the player when he or she creates (or chooses) their deity and creates their code.

The real catch is a Paladin could kill "evil" creatures like demons which rate pretty high on the alignment chart for evil. When they run into mortal creatures they actually have to follow the law (be lawful) even if they have a clear indication of evil. Killing, or meting out any justice, without showing just cause is not being a paladin either, but a vigilante. A paladin saves lost souls. Not simply by being a paragon of their own virtues, but by reaching out to those who have become, you know, "people who want to see the world burn."

 

[triqui]

And why so many gamers want to see Turn Undead disappear from the game? What is your problem with it?

The problem with Turn Undead, is that it only make sense in a Jewish-Christian mithology of some sort. In this kind of enviroment, the cleric's god is the only god, and he is the guardian of everything that is good against those who are evil. He also take care of the afterliving, so it makes sense that he destroy blasphemous monstruosities. You don't need it to be really "jewish-christian". Some fantasy gods, such as The Holy Lignt in World of Warcraft, might work with it. But that's not the case in most D&D campaigns.


Why should a halfling priest of Yondalla worry about undeads? Or a cleric of the god of Storms? Or the god of Fire? Or the god of Trade and Money? Why should Moradin worry so much about Undeads? Why would Mercury, Roman god of thieves and roads, or The Morrigan, celtic goddesses of war, or Marduk, babylonian god of the Seas, or Huitzilopochtli, aztec god of war, sun and human sacrifice give a about undeads?

Why should the god of Technology and Civilization be more worried about undeads than he is worried about nature? Why not a "turn woodland creatures" ability?

 

[P1NBACK]

What I'd like is to have turning that's creature specific, not belonging to a class. Vampires may be turned by garlic and holy symbols; some fey by cold iron or bells, etc.

This is actually what I'm thinking of doing in my own homebrew D&D.

In fact, anyone can turn undead with the right components and the conviction. This requires a check (Wisdom) or attack and Clerics get a bonus to this because of their divine connection and earn the ability to outright destroy some undead if their attack is good enough.