D&D General When to know a rule?

[Lanefan]

I don't see the point of such coy teasing. "Oh, I know all about it, but I'm not telling you anything. And nobody else will either, teehee!"

There's several possible reasons for doing so, any one of which is enough:
--- realism; not everybody in the setting knows everything about everything
--- the DM is using rumours about the armour (which might not even exist!) as bait to attract you to its location for other reasons
--- the DM is making you choose yes or no to extending your downtime (and maybe even leaving the party) to travel to-from the armour's location

And it's also possible the DM dropped the rumour about the armour in completely off the cuff, without expectation anyone would care; and isn't going to bother determining the specifics of what the armour is-does until-unless someone follows up on the rumour by going to where said armour is and checking it out.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

There's several possible reasons for doing so, any one of which is enough:
--- realism; not everybody in the setting knows everything about everything

Then why do the players know about it? Seriously. If it's literally people talking about the products of some other place, you'd think there would be something, ANYTHING, about what makes it in any way different.

--- the DM is using rumours about the armour (which might not even exist!) as bait to attract you to its location for other reasons

And I dislike such coy "oooh, better hope this is real or else you've just wasted a whole bunch of time so you'll feel obligated to do something else there~!" nonsense. Don't be coy. It's not productive. If you have an adventure hook someplace, actually give the players a concrete reason to consider going there. This pretense of making it really their choice is just that, a pretense.

--- the DM is making you choose yes or no to extending your downtime (and maybe even leaving the party) to travel to-from the armour's location

Forcing people to make decisions with no information, when that information should be reasonably available, is not kosher. The DM in that case is being manipulative, and I really don't like being manipulated. Most people don't.

And it's also possible the DM dropped the rumour about the armour in completely off the cuff, without expectation anyone would care; and isn't going to bother determining the specifics of what the armour is-does until-unless someone follows up on the rumour by going to where said armour is and checking it out.

In the given example, the DM already knows what the armor is and does (it was, after all, explicitly calling out Matt Mercer's style of DMing.) There is no possibility of this in the given context, which is what I replied to. If it was literally "ANY reference in ANY form EVER," then obviously that's quite a bit different! We were talking very specifically about an armor that already exists, that the DM knows all of the stats for, and which the DM has specifically informed the players that it exists, but is, for whatever reason, adamantly refusing to say anything at all about what it does. I consider that behavior at the very least worthy of some suspicion on the player's part.

 

[Hussar]

Given that development of a new spell would (one would think) require some DM involvement anyway, even if only to assign costs and determine how long it takes, it's hard to imagine a situation where a player could have their character drop a brand new spell on the game without the DM having any forewarning.

Again, let’s stick to 5e please.

There is zero cost and zero time required to create a new spell.

 

[ezo]

Again, not unrealistic. Despite me never actually seeing a Pagani hypercar, I do know that they exist and that they are super fast and incredibly expensive. It's not unreasonable that the characters may have heard that there is this new (or maybe not new, maybe it's been around for a while) type of armor that the dwarves in this area make and it has this or that property. Particularly if it's better than what is usually to be had.

This isn't a terribly bizarre thing for characters to know.

It begs the question "How do you know about the car?"

It isn't unreasonable for the PCs to have heard of the armor if the dwarves want people to know, and in game they might know the armor is "super light and incredibly expensive". But in terms of game mechanics/systems it doesn't mean the players should know this "dwarven plate only weighs 20 lbs and costs 10,000 gp, and has an AC value of 19 instead of 18".

After all, do you know just how fast the hypercar is? How much it costs? And so on? Knowing the actual cost and top speed are particulars, which you might not know. And if you do, it again begs the question: "How do you know?"

As far as the spell list goes, there's also the point that the players might want to take a gander to see if they might like to pick up one of these spells. After all, 5e casters don't need to research spells - most of the classes just get new spells automatically as they level. So, if Goblin Glue is a spell that is out there, why shouldn't the players be able to ask to see it?

Because Goblin Glue isn't a spell their characters have seen before or might not even know of? This is why the chance to know each listed spell from AD&D was a good thing. Why should every caster in the game know of every spell that exists for their class?

I wonder how many DM's allow players to create entirely new spells for their characters when they level up and then are perfectly content to not see the write up of the spell until it's cast at the table. I'm pretty sure not a single DM would EVER allow that.

Some DMs might, but I know I wouldn't.

Seriously though, because the DM is responsible for the balance of their game and what is possible. If a DM homebrews their own spells for the PCs to encounter, and it turns out the spell is OP or whatever, what WOULD be wrong at that point would be for the DM to give the players a nerfed version or something.

Presumably @bloodtide has these spells written up somewhere. With that many, I would hope so. And, again, presumably, it's in a format that it would not be terribly difficult to hand to the players - a word doc or something similar. Maybe it's a hand written notebook. I dunno. Don't care. I'm just not seeing the point in having several hundred pages of material that is available to characters - after all, spells ARE available to characters - and then hiding it and doling it out piecemeal.

Why would these spells be available to characters if they are custom spells the PCs don't know about?

Now, the OP mentions having a bunch of themed spells (like cold spells), and I would hope that if a PC has a cold-theme such as a Silver Dragonborn Sorcerer or something, the DM would allow that player to view these cold-themed spells for that PC.

If I had created 500 spells, I'd be pretty proud of my work and I'd want to share it with my players. If nothing else, I'd want them to check my work.

That's cool, but that's you. This DM has many of these spells (presumably) to give the players "new magic" to encounter during gameplay. It adds to the mystery and wonder and I understand that. Especially spells which come from species or regions foreign to the PCs.

 

[ezo]

Again, let’s stick to 5e please.

There is zero cost and zero time required to create a new spell.

Really? Where is that rule?

It is entirely up to the DM what cost and time is required to create a new spell.

 

[Hussar]

Really? Where is that rule?

It is entirely up to the DM what cost and time is required to create a new spell.

Nope.

When I gain a level in a casting class, I automatically gain new spells known. No research. No cost. They either just poof into my brain, my patron teaches them to me, they get written somehow into my spell book, or, if I'm a divine caster, I know all of them from the get go.

So, if there are 500 new spells in the game world, any divine spells would be known by all divine casters. And, any arcane caster could add them to their spells known automatically.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

I'm not the type of DM that wants or needs players to "check my work". I'm far more an expert then my players.

And people wonder why I'm so critical of DM's?

Lessee. 500 spells, assume about 100 words per spell, that's 50 000 words. Presumably, also, this is several man-hours of work, probably spread over several days, if not months. Now, you're claiming that you have not a single typo, misspelled word, poorly written phrase, nothing, in all that work? Not a single, solitary mistake.

Excuse me if I'm not really buying that. I strongly suspect that there are numerous errors in your work. Not because of any fault of yours, but, simply because knowing that writing can be rather challenging and it's easy to make typos, mistakes, and various other errors, even by paid professionals with thousands of published words to their names. Having spent a rather lengthy amount of time proofing papers, I'm fairly certainly that I could find numerous errors in your work.

But, ignore all that. You're claiming that you can create five hundred new spells and not a single one of them causes any problems at the table? Again, I don't really have a lot of confidence in that. Professional game authors, with teams of editors and play-testers cannot do that. I strongly doubt that a single person, working on their own, could.

 

[TiQuinn]

I don't see the point of such coy teasing. "Oh, I know all about it, but I'm not telling you anything. And nobody else will either, teehee!"

Clearly because it is a limited resource that can only be acquired either by a specific individual or for a limited amount of time, and likely with an adventure hook involved, but the party has to choose to engage with that part of the story first before further details are divulged.

It’s like a mystery novel. Of course, you can just skip to the last two chapters to find out whodunit, but the point is to uncover the clues first. And if that’s not to your liking, find a book (or game in this case) that is doesn’t provide mysteries.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Again, let’s stick to 5e please.

There is zero cost and zero time required to create a new spell.

You are quite correct on this, but I would consider it common courtesy for the player to discuss the spells they'd like to include within the game considering it could affect world-building. It could help resolve certain questions before they arose in game - material components for instance etc.

I view this very much in the same way, when our table decided that the Eldritch Knight (after investigating the write-up of that class) would likely have a spellbook which allowed him to swap out spells and how long that would take. We needed to understand how the class would work in our world despite the 5e PHB being thin on the ground with regards to those details.

 

[TiQuinn]

Forcing people to make decisions with no information, when that information should be reasonably available, is not kosher. The DM in that case is being manipulative, and I really don't like being manipulated. Most people don't.

I think we’re at the point in the discussion where you’re saying more about yourself than you are other people.

It’s a valid way of kicking off a plot hook despite whatever visceral reaction you might have to it. Own the idea that it’s just not for you.