What makes E6 "gritty"?

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

Title says most of it.

I'm considering a system for fantasy gaming, and I might as well consider D&D 3.5/Pathfinder. Since I don't want superheroes (since if I did there are better systems for it) I'd be using one of the E# level caps. Trouble is I've never understood what the terms for the level breakdown normally used to describe E6-whatever mean: 1-6 "gritty", 8-12 "heroic", etc. I'm hoping someone can give me a breakdown of what each of these words means in terms of things like how flashy the powers are, how daredevil the action can be, and most importantly how likely the PCs are to survive doings stupid things like blitzing the BBEG without having any tactics in mind.

 

[Alzrius]

What makes E6 "gritty" isn't the level cap itself, but rather the expectations for the game world that people have.

I've always thought of a "grim 'n' gritty" campaign as one where death is a strong possibility for the PCs, and resurrections are extremely rare, if they're available at all. If the PCs aren't smart, tough, and lucky, then they have an excellent chance of ending up dead, permanently, during a given adventure.

The underlying assumption here, that I've discovered at least, is that this style of game-play doesn't work under the (apparently more modern) idea that a campaign is a collaborative story told between the GM and the players, where PC death is an aberration that only happens during stints of very bad luck and/or extremely stupid decisions (or a punitive GM).

Hence, E6 unto itself isn't necessarily a gritty way to play. But it makes it easier for people who want to play that way.

The reason that E6 is so much easier for this is that it ties the PCs more firmly to "realistic" ideas of what a person could do (insofar as they live in a magical world) when compared against real people, both in the game world and in the real world. There's a great article over at The Alexandrian talking about how the people who're the best of the best in real life are 5th level at most. The Fellowship of the Ring? For the most part they're about 4th level. Capping characters at 6th level (presumably) keeps players feeling like they're playing exceptionally talented people, rather than individuals with super powers.

The rest of it, though, is all how the GM presents the world. If they throw weak/stupid adversaries at the PCs, then the PCs will still be able to get away with charging in and hack 'n' slashing everything in sight. If they keep magic-marts in villages, then (low-level) magic items will still be bought and sold without fanfare, etc.

E6 is an idea to make it easier to play low-magic, easier-to-get-killed, PCs-not-THAT-much-better-than-ordinary-people games, but executing the idea still takes good GMing.

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

Okay, that's good. So what's the level range for "unrealistic, but doesn't feel like you're using superpowers yet"?

 

[Nifft]

Okay, that's good. So what's the level range for "unrealistic, but doesn't feel like you're using superpowers yet"?

That depends on what you mean by "superpowers".

Raising the dead?

Surviving a 100 ft. fall?

Teleporting around the world?

Casting magic missile at the darkness?

Cheers, -- N

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

EDIT: Eh, nevermind, I'll find a system I can understand.

 

[Alaxk Knight of Galt]

Okay, that's good. So what's the level range for "unrealistic, but doesn't feel like you're using superpowers yet"?

For E6, that's level 6

A better question is what are you looking for? If you want gritty, go with a 1st or 2nd edition core rules; roll 3d6 in order, death at 0 HP, random HP at first level, etc. If your players take a 4E kill them all mindset, 1d12 orcs will make for a gritty (and grim) first session

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

The real question is not what I want now, but just simply I have absolutely no idea how the level ranges translate into the various terms people use. I basically don't understand levels.

 

[Ryltar]

I'll give this a try, Silvercat.

I guess that the basic misunderstanding here is that you think adventure levels have anything to do with, for lack of a better term, the 'feel of an adventure'. They don't.

The term 'level' basically is nothing but a measure of the player characters' power. Higher level characters generally are stronger, can take more damage, know more and stronger spells, have access to more abilities and so on. If an adventure says it is 'for level x to y', that means that you as a DM can run this game without modifications if your players' characters are within the level range of x to y.

This misconception may be informed by WotC's decision to separate 4th edition class levels into so-called 'tiers' to facilitate talking about adventures; the logic behind this is that each of the (as far as I know) three 'tiers' or level ranges requires a dungeon master to allow for different considerations when approaching the adventure. For example, if players can only cast a certain spell (say: teleport) once they have reached level X, then a DM running an adventure at level (X-1) doesn't have to worry about his characters teleporting all over the place and ruining his carefully thought-out barriers and traps.

Now, for the 'feel' of the adventure. Gritty is basically a made-up word which describes a setup in which the characters are often facing overwhelming odds, are more flawed and/or realistic than it is the case in 'heroic fantasy', and the adventure's themes often touch upon complicated, political and/or mature themes rather than light-hearted adventuring.

For example, let's take a very basic situation. Assume that a group of heroes is attacking a lair of monsters. In a lighthearted adventure, the PCs might wipe out the monster tribe, loot their treasure and go home. In a more 'gritty' adventure, the PCs might have to work together to get captured hostages out of the monster camp. Upon finding the camp and scouting it, they find that several hostages have already been tortured and/or killed, another is in danger of dying. They must act quickly and decisively in order to get her out. But the only viable way leads through a section of the camp where the monster young are kept. Can the PCs take it upon their conscience to basically kill monster babies in order to rescue the hostage? Basic Conundrums such as this might arise in a 'gritty' game.

What I'm trying to say is this: Adventures for all character levels can be 'gritty', but don't have to be. You can have more light-hearted adventuring with a level 1 party as well as a level 18 party, although the campaign themes tend to stray towards the more 'complex' the higher in level a character gets.

Hope this helps you out.

 

[Nifft]

The real question is not what I want now, but just simply I have absolutely no idea how the level ranges translate into the various terms people use. I basically don't understand levels.

In that case, don't worry about E6 or whatever.

Just play D&D. As your game progresses and you see the effects of various levels on play, you'll get a feel for what you like and what you don't.

THEN, after you know how it feels to play D&D at a bunch of different levels, you can come back here and we can help you make a game that you like.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

This misconception may be informed by WotC's decision to separate 4th edition class levels into so-called 'tiers' to facilitate talking about adventures;....

Actually it has completely nothing to do with 4e and everything to do with most of the discussions I've read on the E# system (which existed before 4e).

*sigh* Alright, I'll shot it. I'm just confused because I never think of characters in terms of changing that much and mostly think of success in binary, so the idea of "levels" of skill and power doesn't translate well.