What Games do you think are Neotrad?

[Ruin Explorer]

I don't really understand posts liek this. First, "blorbo." What?

Tumblr man, you need a translator and possibly a native guide. Luckily I've been on a space station monitoring Tumblr for a decade or more. My information isn't perfect and I used cloaked drones to avoid scaring the locals, but I can tell you what a Blorbo is - it's a character you really like.

So here the mean is slightly to 15-30 degree off that - they mean a PC you strongly care about and probably put a lot of effort into creating. So like, your DCC death-funnelled guy? He's not a Blorbo. That Vampire character which took a couple of hours to build mechanically and where you spent 6+ hours on his backstory and revising that and then drawing a picture of him and sometimes you think about him when you're not playing? That's a Blorbo.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

describe something we have all been doing the whole time

There is always an element of this with RPG theory to be fair, because we played before the theory existed. That doesn't invalidate the theory any more than good business practices existing before the formalized versions of those appearing does, I think you'd agree.

I think there's some use here because the focus in a NeoTrad game is on what I labelled 3 - what your CHARACTER wants and does - not just what the player does with the character and how high level they are and so on. There's more of a character focus - and sure some people always played that way - I mean, I never really played not that way - it's always been a large component. But for some other people and games, it's either a smaller component, or sometimes barely there - in a lot of OSR play the player motivations and directing the character to achieve things are much more important than what the character would theoretically want.

I hope this is helpful not annoying!

 

[TwoSix]

I think there's some use here because the focus in a NeoTrad game is on what I labelled 3 - what your CHARACTER wants and does - not just what the player does with the character and how high level they are and so on. There's more of a character focus - and sure some people always played that way - I mean, I never really played not that way - it's always been a large component. But for some other people and games, it's either a smaller component, or sometimes barely there - in a lot of OSR play the player motivations and directing the character to achieve things are much more important than what the character would theoretically want.

I hope this is helpful not annoying!

Agreed. And where I think we can also separate a neotrad game from one that's more oriented around Story Now/narrative play based on "concern for the growth of the character".

Generally, in more narrative games, the character functions as a tool to attach story beats and thematic drives. The concern is about telling a story with the character as the focus, but not having the character develop in a particular direction. In a neotrad game, you would never "drive the character like a stolen car"; having the character survive and thrive is of major importance.

 

[GobHag]

Thanks.

I don't really understand posts liek this. First, "blorbo." What?

Anyway, my main issue is the post opens with telling you that this is a playstyle you can do with any game, and then goes on to give you a list of game to play in this style. it is self contradictory. Why aren't we talking about the playstyle irrespective of the game, if any game can support the playstyle?

I mean, it is another of those jargony terms that seems to try and describe something we have all been doing the whole time and is pretty much meaningless. "See what happens to your character" is the default of RPG play. The other options, like Microscope, are the exception and those would benefit from some terminology. But "playing your character" is just playing an RPG.

Blorbo is a meme term in modern fandom twitter/tumblt when referring to a favourit character in a not-quite-ironic way--sometimes from another media(Games, anime, books, shows) or an OC you yourself create.

You can cut meat and tofu with a spoon--doesn't mean a knife is pointless, you beat someone's head with a chair--doesn't mean a warhammer isn't a good weapon. And for something in RPG exactly... Nothing in AD&D or B/X's ruleset or early modules makes for a good system to use for dramatic, heart-rending drama yet there plenty of people very much do play it that way back in the 80s/70s(I am reading Elusive Shift right now and it's very obvious how circular TTRPG discussion is). Does it mean it's wrong for games/modules to start designing themselves to satisfy or facilitate that playstyle? No, of course not. Less we all still be playing B/X to this day.

There is always an element of this with RPG theory to be fair, because we played before the theory existed. That doesn't invalidate the theory any more than good business practices existing before the formalized versions of those appearing does, I think you'd agree.

I think there's some use here because the focus in a NeoTrad game is on what I labelled 3 - what your CHARACTER wants and does - not just what the player does with the character and how high level they are and so on. There's more of a character focus - and sure some people always played that way - I mean, I never really played not that way - it's always been a large component. But for some other people and games, it's either a smaller component, or sometimes barely there - in a lot of OSR play the player motivations and directing the character to achieve things are much more important than what the character would theoretically want.

I hope this is helpful not annoying!

I gotta disagree that it's what the character itself wants--One of the examples given there is Chronicles of Darkness and that system is all about terrible, no-good, stuff happening to the characters. Lots of it's systems is about pushing the player to want to have Horror Things(or become Horror Things) happen to their character by bribing them with XP(Autofail this sneak and I'll give you 1 XP) for it's base ruleset.

Hell, even in the combat games making every single character a fight-junkie that craves violence--even though you, the player, wants to keep fighting stuff--feels... wrong*. It's exploring and showing off the PC in the light the player wants to show them as. That's why death is usually seen as a last resort to cap-off an arc, even if you want a character to be pathetic; a corpse is a corpse.

*EVen though it's my favourite character archetype.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I gotta disagree that it's what the character itself wants

Sure, maybe what "does" is better, but it's like a focus on the character and what they're doing above the player just using as a sort of avatar. The horrible things happening (and I think that can easily be overstated how bad they are too) tend to be quite character-specific, rather than sort of generically horrible.

 

[GobHag]

Sure, maybe what "does" is better, but it's like a focus on the character and what they're doing above the player just using as a sort of avatar. The horrible things happening (and I think that can easily be overstated how bad they are too) tend to be quite character-specific, rather than sort of generically horrible.

Yeah, your other posts hits the nail on the head. The hell the character goes through in Neotrad is personalised to them.

 

[TwoSix]

I gotta disagree that it's what the character itself wants--One of the examples given there is Chronicles of Darkness and that system is all about terrible, no-good, stuff happening to the characters. Lots of it's systems is about pushing the player to want to have Horror Things(or become Horror Things) happen to their character by bribing them with XP(Autofail this sneak and I'll give you 1 XP) for it's base ruleset.

CoD is a bit of a hybrid system, to my mind. It has the crunch level and character differentiation I associate with neotrad, but the "drive your character into oncoming traffic" XP motivations are almost pure storygame.

But also, having a horror focused game, especially a vampire game, without some kind of "push the character into corruption" mechanic would be a bit of betrayal of the source material. You could probably run Mage CoD more easily as a pure neotrad experience while keeping within the broad thematics of the source material.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

You could probably run Mage CoD more easily as a pure neotrad experience while keeping within the broad thematics of the source material.

Mage: The Awakening may be the blandest, least imaginative, and least-inspiring WoD-related game ever made, which I feel is saying something, but that is true. That said I didn't read the second edition, maybe they drastically reworked it.

 

[GobHag]

Speaking of, I actually do think 'canon' settings have an important use in NeoTrad play even though we've constantly been talking about games where world-creation is distributed. OCs did have an appeal in putting stuff into ongoing media with large fandoms--Naruto, Sonic, Harry Potter.

Creation from Exalted, Lancer's space, Gubat Banwa's Sword Isles, even DnD's loose setting(which is probably helped by being the source of medieval fantasy). All settings from games that I consider good for Neotrad play.

As a play culture that has very close ties to fandom even to this day, games where there's things a fandom can latch on to are usually a good way for Neotrad players to 'set their limit'. Just like how a blank paper and no prompt makes it hard to draw, a game with no explicit setting is hard for players to imagine their designed characters to be like--organisations, power players, cultures, ancestries. these things help as both prompts and a sort of validation for their character--Sometimes I didn't realize I wanted to be indian space robot you know?

One could also see this as another form of DM disempowerment, remember that Neotrad has a leaning to do things 'by the book' so a setting that facilitates it gives a casus belli for them to play their Tiefling Cleric or Corpo Catgirl Idol Supersoldier Mech-Pilot despite the DMs grievances.

 

[Thomas Shey]

The discussion in the last few pages reinforces my opinion that probably the earliest games leaning into Neotrad were superhero games.