Weakening Monsters?

[Hassassin]

There are rules in MM/SRD for improving monsters, but are there any rules for making weaker versions of monsters?

What I mean in practice is a very young hill giant, a badly deteriorated zombie or a diseased dragon. Anything that's significantly weaker than an average specimen and thus has a lower CR.

 

[Rhun]

There are rules in MM/SRD for improving monsters, but are there any rules for making weaker versions of monsters?

What I mean in practice is a very young hill giant, a badly deteriorated zombie or a diseased dragon. Anything that's significantly weaker than an average specimen and thus has a lower CR.

I suggest taking the rules for improving monsters, and using them in reverse.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

There are a few templates I'm aware of, but they're not very generalizable for he most part, other than the the "miniature" and "young" template. Here's a c'n'p from my notes:

Templates that decrease CR

... from Savage Species (pub: WOTC)

• incarnate construct - a construct turned flesh & blood.

... from Book of Templates Deluxe Edition 3.5 (pub: Silverthorne Games)

• the Blighted Thrall - one who has failed its god.
• the Degenerate - one who is, well, degenerate: inbred, decadent, backward
• Miniature - "I call him... Mini-Me!"

... from Pathfinder(pub: Paizo)

• young creature - you guessed it. (links to PF SRD)

Applying size change rules in reverse works fine for creatures with few special abilities, but that doesn't address how special abilities should be depowered (other than DCs tied to abilities scores that change).

Imho the quickest & easiet thing is to apply the Pathfinder "young creature" quick-template, with or without the size change depending upon what you're going for (eg, use it without the size reduction to get an "old and decrepit" template). But again this still doesn't say much about specials, other than damage dice and DCs. This would work fine for your hill giant (as designed); maybe all right for the zombie (without he size change); but probably not so well for the diseased dragon, because the quick-template is silent on the question of dimishing SLAs.

 

[Hassassin]

Imho the quickest & easiet thing is to apply the Pathfinder "young creature" quick-template, with or without the size change depending upon what you're going for (eg, use it without the size reduction to get an "old and decrepit" template). But again this still doesn't say much about specials, ther than damage dice and DCs.

Thanks, that's more or less what I was looking for.

So, for quick rules I'll just adjust all rolls by +/-2 depending on if they're Dex-based and take -2hp/HD to get a monster with CR one lower. The Dex thing doesn't make much sense outside the "smaller" variant, but I'll leave it in hope of not disturbing balance further.

 

[Rhun]

Thanks, that's more or less what I was looking for.

So, for quick rules I'll just adjust all rolls by +/-2 depending on if they're Dex-based and take -2hp/HD to get a monster with CR one lower. The Dex thing doesn't make much sense outside the "smaller" variant, but I'll leave it in hope of not disturbing balance further.

Makes it super easy!

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Savage Species has a few examples of monsters-as-class progression, and lays out rules for doing so.

I remember putting together a Toddler Minotaur as a babysitting mini-adventure based upon the rules in there, but I'm fuzzy on the details at the moment.

 

[Jhaelen]

I suggest taking the rules for improving monsters, and using them in reverse.

I did this once but the result isn't really well-balanced. I ended up with something that was overall too weak for its CR with a single ability that was too strong for its CR.

It's probably better to pick a similar monster with the desired CR and make some minor changes.

 

[Rhun]

I did this once but the result isn't really well-balanced. I ended up with something that was overall too weak for its CR with a single ability that was too strong for its CR.

It's probably better to pick a similar monster with the desired CR and make some minor changes.

Ah, well it was worth a shot. I'm generally an "on the fly" type DM. If I need to par down a creature, I just kind of eyeball it and adjust stats to fit what I want.

 

[Hassassin]

I used the -2 quick template last night along regular versions of monsters. It seemed quite balanced.

However, if the monster has significant abilities where the template will not come into play (e.g. spell like abilities with only a save DC) the situation might be different. I'm not sure it'd be problematic even then, since -2hp/HD is always significant.

I ended up simplifying the template even further: -2 to all rolls, -2 hp/HD, -1 CR.

Edit: Note, I'm fairly unconcerned about balance, so something I consider "quite balanced" may be completely unacceptable to someone else.

 

[Rhun]

Edit: Note, I'm fairly unconcerned about balance, so something I consider "quite balanced" may be completely unacceptable to someone else.

I'm right there with you. As long as it works for you in your game, that is all that really matters.