Update Madness!

[Pbartender]

For most part, my gaming group and I really like 4E and are having fun playing it. There's just thing that's been getting me (and the rest of my players to one degree or another) down lately... Updates.

And in advance, please, forgive my occasional hyperbole. It's likely the frustration soaking through.

The regular addition of new stuff doesn't bother us so much, but constant revisions and errata of what's already there. It's wearing me out.

First, following the updates and errata seems to be so much more of all or nothing proposition than it was in past editions...

D&D 4E is so heavily invested in the online tools that, while it's possible, it's not easy to run a game or build characters without them. Of course, the online tools are all automatically updated (and cannot be customized) such that if you don't use all the errata, the tools become troublesome to use. There isn't even a way to look up what a rule was like before it had been updated. The online tools only provide the most recent update.

By the same respect, the few rulebooks we collectively own (why buy most of them, when we can simply pay a modest monthly fee to access all of them via the online Compendium?) quickly become hopelessly out of date. My PHB and DMG are functionally useless for rules adjudication at the table.

So, we either stick close to the online tools and use all of the errata and updates, or we pare back almost all the way back to just using the three original core books and use none of the errata and updates.

Also, maybe it's just me because I don't slavishly follow the update announcements, but so many of the changes seem to be so very obscure and subtle that we don't notice them (even though they sometimes make a surprising impact on game play) until weeks after they're released.

All in all, it feels as if the rules are changing on us from week to week, and we can't rely on anything working in the same way from one session to the next.

We're talking over the possibility of switching over to another, more "stable", system when our current campaign concludes, but we don't really any suggestions toward that end.

I'm just curious if anyone else is having similar botherations.

 

[Locutus Zero]

Most of the updates are specific to classes and powers, so why not just use the character builder as your reference? If errata comes out in Dragon, it will make to the CB a few weeks later. Maybe keep an eye out for the kind of errata that wouldn't show up in the builder, but that stuff is rare.

So every level, the group prints out new stuff, and eventually someone will notice that their power has changed. Even this will be pretty rare since most updates only effect one class. And if the player is more used to playing the power from memory and takes a while to notice the change, no harm done. If odd game breaking things start happening, one of the first things folks will do is double check their power card.

 

[Skyscraper]

I tend to agree with you. I've abandonned my core books and have stopped buying new books altogether since their lifespan is about a year at most before they have enough errata to become obsolete.

I do not mind errata that much, honestly. I'm sure anything made by man can be improved over time, and the rules modficiations and other errata in 4E seem sound to me.

One thing that irritates me is that DDI doesn't precisely offer all that the books offer. For example, try to browse through DDI to get a general explanation on combat rules. It's not there. You can find something specific in DDI when you use one or another search term, but nothing general. And now, they've removed the entire class description of each Essentials class in the compendium, to leave only the level 1 information. So if you want to know something about a class evolution, you need to log into the Character Builder and jump in-between that and the compendium; or you can buy the books and jump in-between them and the Compendium (for updates).

I'm unsure what it is that Wizards expects its clients to do: maybe buy the books in the first months after they come out, and then refer to online content for specific information found in the books? I admit that their marketing strategy is obscure to me; and as a client any one of the proposed solutions (the books, DDI, or using both back-and-forth) is unsatisfying.

 

[TerraDave]

Basically, 4E is one big open playtest. Didn't get enough before it was released, well its gotten tons now. People point that out as best practice for PF or the new goodmen game, but we are the pioneers. Of course we pay for the privilege.

Yes, its good that broken things are fixed. But when they fix the fixes, or feel that so many things need to be fixed (why was it so broken in the first place??), it starts to be a problem, for the reasons you point out.

To be more constructive, you can always just set a cut off date. The time around the last update of the downloadable charecter builder and essentials release is the obvious time. I think you should be able to figure out the printed errata from then as well. Then don't bother.

 

[Pbartender]

Most of the updates are specific to classes and powers, so why not just use the character builder as your reference? If errata comes out in Dragon, it will make to the CB a few weeks later. Maybe keep an eye out for the kind of errata that wouldn't show up in the builder, but that stuff is rare.

The Character Builder is much of the problem, though... A good example is the recent change to "Come And Get It", the 7th Level Fighter encounter power. Our party Fighter has had the power for months and loved it. She didn't know it had been changed until a week ago in the middle of a combat halfway through the gaming session. It took her completely by surprise, and threw us all for a loop.

The same thing happened with the party wizard not too long ago with Winged Horde. More recently, he had to give up his Cannith Goggles, because they suddenly jumped up 10 Levels.

 

[Lancelot]

I feel your pain, but there's a simple solution: ignore the updates.

4e D&D, without any updates, is more balanced than previous versions of the game. I don't think anyone in the Edition Wars (TM) is denying that. There are no save-or-die spells, wizards don't automatically rule after 6th level, it's very hard to build a "terrible" character, etc. Yes, if you ignore the updates, there are a few unbalanced combos available. But, as long as your group doesn't include Char Ops munchkins, who cares? If you're enjoying 4e with a bunch of friends, just play it as written in the rulebooks. If something seems unbalanced, that's the job of the DM to enforce a ruling so that the enjoyment of the game is not unduly damaged.

You could switch to a more stable system, true. But what does that actually mean?

Ideally, you're looking for a rules system that:

• ...is complex (you like 4e, so we'll assume you want some level of complexity - as opposed to a simple narrative-style RPG with few hard-n-fast rules)
• ...has new releases (unless you just want 1 rulebook, and you'll wing it from there)
• ...is perfectly balanced
• ...is flawlessly written
• ...expands its design philosophy without ever invalidating or modifying its previous assumptions (i.e. the designers somehow anticipated every change they'd ever want to make to the system in the original design)

If any of the above don't hold, the system will probably have... or require... errata. The more releases, the more design extensions, the more complexity... the more errata it will need.

So, you could move to a new "stable" system. Either it's so basic (no new releases, no new design) that it never needs errata. Or it's exactly the same as staying with 4e and ignoring the errata. You're playing a system you enjoy, and it has a few minor balance issues. Much like Exalted, or World of Darkness, or Dragon Age RPG, or Pathfinder, or Dark Heresy, or Savage Worlds...

In fact, most of those latter systems have much greater "balance" issues than 4e. They simply don't issue errata until an entirely new version comes out. Which is exactly the same as ignoring 4e's errata and playing it "out of the books" until you choose to move to 5e or whatever.

In summary: if you enjoy a particular version of any system, but you don't enjoy a particular facet of it... (Essentials, frequent errata, skill challenges, succubi-are-devils, changes to the Great Wheel planar philosophy)... ignore the thing that is causing you grief, and get back to having fun.

 

[Locutus Zero]

The Character Builder is much of the problem, though... A good example is the recent change to "Come And Get It", the 7th Level Fighter encounter power. Our party Fighter has had the power for months and loved it. She didn't know it had been changed until a week ago in the middle of a combat halfway through the gaming session. It took her completely by surprise, and threw us all for a loop.

The same thing happened with the party wizard not too long ago with Winged Horde. More recently, he had to give up his Cannith Goggles, because they suddenly jumped up 10 Levels.

How is the Character Builder the problem in those examples? It sounds like the problem is with the updates themselves, not how they are delivered or how often. There is choosing not to keep up with errata because it is a hassle, and there is choosing not to keep up with errata because you don't like the changes.

 

[Ferghis]

First, following the updates and errata seems to be so much more of all or nothing proposition than it was in past editions...

I can't say I agree with this. If you want to ignore updates, or just examine them every six months, you're free to do so. I only really download them every few months.

D&D 4E is so heavily invested in the online tools that, while it's possible, it's not easy to run a game or build characters without them. Of course, the online tools are all automatically updated (and cannot be customized) such that if you don't use all the errata, the tools become troublesome to use. There isn't even a way to look up what a rule was like before it had been updated. The online tools only provide the most recent update.

I agree with some of this very much: any use of the online tools makes you stick much more closely to the official material. They discourage houserules, third party material, homebrews, and the like. If you've bought into D&Di, it's hard to NOT use the character builder. To one extent, that makes things easier. To another, it reduces the DM and players' input on the game. It's a trade-off.

By the same respect, the few rulebooks we collectively own (why buy most of them, when we can simply pay a modest monthly fee to access all of them via the online Compendium?) quickly become hopelessly out of date. My PHB and DMG are functionally useless for rules adjudication at the table.

Again, I agree. I sold my PHB when the Rules Compendium came out, and live more-or-less happily with my subscription.

On the other hand, returning to my initial point, if you don't like the updates, you bought a perfectly playable game when you purchased the initial books. Play it, and ignore the updates, if that's more fun for you.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I tend to agree with you. I've abandonned my core books and have stopped buying new books altogether since their lifespan is about a year at most before they have enough errata to become obsolete.

In your humble opinion, I think.

Seriously, totally obsolete due to errata? Only if the table is totally anal about updates. My group is about to go back to book only, no errata, as keeping track is too much of a pain, and th changes are not that much, not really.

 

[Locutus Zero]

My players prefer to stick to whatever is in the CB because that's easier than hand editing. So far the only changes to effect us have been the playtest changes to the warlock (not in the CB yet, but I'm fine with the player using it if he wants) and the change of Sneak Attack from 1/round to 1/turn.

If someone had a power that was changed, I'd entertain letting them keep the old version if they wanted, assuming it didn't effect anything else. Obviously I wouldn't let them cherry pick the best of pre-errata and post-errata, but as long as they aren't trying to game the system I'm fine with letting each player do as they want.