Traps impossible to find/disarm?

[Thanee]

Last game we encountered a magical trap in an adventure (some adventure from the WotC site, I think).

It was inside the resting place of a vampire (aka coffin). We could detect magic inside the coffin, but even careful search for traps revealed nothing (with a Search bonus beyond +20).

When the coffin was opened some spell triggered from inside the coffin and released a gas of poisonous gas. Ok, so we all were immune to that because of a Heroes' Feast and couldn't care less, but still...

Should this be classified as a trap and should a Rogue (especially when using Detect Magic) be able to identify it as such?

Could it be disarmed? There was definitely no way (except drilling holes into the coffin maybe) to get in touch with the spell, unless opening the coffin, which would trigger it.

Of course, there are traps, that are too hard to be found (identified as such) or disabled with the present skill level, but simply impossible?

What do you think?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Walks like a trap, talks like a trap.

I say it is a trap.

We do not need "clever" designers/authors who want to create a special category of traps that are not traps.

Search should most definitely have revealed its presence.

As to disarming a trap, I would give the adventure more wiggle room. Magical traps can be tough to disarm.

I think it would be fair to create a trap that the Rogue would not want to attempt to disarm. What do I mean?

He might have to crawl on his belly while manipulating two wires he pushed through holes he drilled into the coffin. Disarming can be attempted, but the Rogue is a sitting duck if the vampire decides to open the coffin lid while the Rogue is in the middle of doing his stuff.

I would say a Rogue can disarm any trap given adequate skill and time. But attempting to do so would not be safe if you might be attacked.

 

[Henrix]

Normal Search DC for a magical trap, as you certainly know, is 25+ spell level, for a rogue. But I suppose that a trap could be much better hidden.

And the rogue would have to be able to see the trap to be able to search for it, so if it was inside the coffin, and not just on the lid, he would not be able to find it, I suppose.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

And the rogue would have to be able to see the trap to be able to search for it, so if it was inside the coffin, and not just on the lid, he would not be able to find it, I suppose.

I couldn't disagree more.

Traps are almost always hidden. That is half the point.

Allowing the "you can't see it" argument creates a completely arbitrary loophole big enough to march an elder wyrm through.

 

[Bonedagger]

Just because your guy couldn't (Didn't have a chance to...) disarm it. Doesn't mean nobody could....

Maybe it was one of those status-Q ones.. Or maybe it was just a tool for the DM to create a mood of danger (Kinda like a warning of what to come). Maybe it w.... (I stoped myself. I felt you got my point)

 

[Thanee]

Well, he said, it wasn't a trap and I couldn't access it anyways.

Not, that I have a problem with this particular decision, I just want to know in general how people think about this.

Bye
Thanee

 

[S'mon]

Well, he said, it wasn't a trap and I couldn't access it anyways.

Not, that I have a problem with this particular decision, I just want to know in general how people think about this.

Bye
Thanee

Seemed to me at first like a trap with no means to identify or disarm. But if the gas billowed out when the crypt was opened, it must have been lighter than air. Therefore there must have been an airtight seal on the trap lid. I'd give a DC - maybe 30 or so, depending on how well made the crypt is - to detect the seal. Can't think of any way it could be 'disarmed' though.

 

[Macbrea]

Ok, what you have is a Glyph of warding on a coffin bottom that is set to go off if the coffin is open.


How to detect:

Ok, this one is obvious to your party. They cast detect magic. Lets look what you can do with that.

Spell craft check:
20 + spell level Identify a spell that's already in place and in effect. (the character must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell.) No retry.

This will inform the user that the spell they are detecting in the coffin is a glyph of warding and its exact location. It probably won't tell you what its set to because you cannot examine the glyph.

This now tells your rogue where the glyph is at. The bottom of the coffin. He now needs to be able to get to the item. This means he is going to have to pull out his drill and drill probably in the exact location of the glyph in order to destroy it. If the party wishes to limit the amount of people that can open the coffin from the inside they will probably want to set something very heavy on its top.


Now, as to the answer to wether traps can be made unidentifable it is yes. It is possible to cloud the scene so much that the people cannot tell what is a trap and what isn't. Its not advised as a gamemaster to do this very often.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Now, as to the answer to wether traps can be made unidentifable it is yes. It is possible to cloud the scene so much that the people cannot tell what is a trap and what isn't. Its not advised as a gamemaster to do this very often.

I suppose so. If you throw many, many dweomers and different traps and enchanted widgets on the coffin then it is a practical impossibility to figure out what is a trap. Or it might take days...

I do smell a small whiff of "I decided you cannot use you character abilities here because I felt like", so these DM should make these once or twice a lifetime problems.

OTOH, an impossible to find or disarm trap should get a big boost in its CR. The party may not be able to evade it, but the get a lot of extra xp for it.

A sealed coffin would not be a particular problem. Just drill a hole. A hammer, chisel, and drill would be standard tools for a break in artist.

 

[Artoomis]

It is possible to have a trap that is very difficult to find (it should not be impossible).

It may not be possible to disarm the trap, but it should be possible, even if pretty darned unlikely, to deduce enough about the trap to avoid it's deadly effects.

In the case we are discussing here, it should have been barely possible to detect the trap and determine that it was a gas trap activated by opening up the casket. This would have provided enough information to allow the effects to be avoided.

This situation should be most unsual, as a trap that cannot be disarmed from the outside means no one can ever get inside, and, of course, it's really, really hard to set up such a trap. For a vampire it's not so hard - I suppose he could actually arm the trap from inside the coffin, making it impossible to disarm unless you are already inside. A trap like that might even be impossibel to detect from outside the coffin. That's fine - but that fact should become clear to the rogue upon later examination.