D&D (2024) They need to bring back Gather Information in One DnD.

[CapnZapp]

There is also the problem of charisma being a bit of an S tier attribute compared to other sttribs like int.

Sure, but "let's not allow using Charisma for things that totally use Charisma" isn't solving that.

The solution to Charisma being much better than Intelligence is... making Intelligence better.

Readd "add your Int modifier to your number of skills" and, done.

 

[tetrasodium]

Sure, but "let's not allow using Charisma for things that totally use Charisma" isn't solving that.

The solution to Charisma being much better than Intelligence is... making Intelligence better.

Readd "add your Int modifier to your number of skills" and, done.

Or at a certain point the first step in doing better is to admit that making every effort to find a new niche that charisma could be attached to father than seeing if some other attribute is better fitting or already filling that niche is a far from reasonable looping of design aimed at a problem from multiple editions ago.

 

[CapnZapp]

Or at a certain point the first step in doing better is to admit that making every effort to find a new niche that charisma could be attached to father than seeing if some other attribute is better fitting or already filling that niche is a far from reasonable looping of design aimed at a problem from multiple editions ago.

Not sure what this means.

If Charisma is "OP" when it comes to skills, the obvious solution is to... divide that power over more skills.

My remark was intended to remind everyone that one big reason WotC is in this hole is their own fault. Taking away Int's outsized influence over skills is a big reason everybody (not literally everybody) except Wizards dump Int.

 

[tetrasodium]

Not sure what this means.

If Charisma is "OP" when it comes to skills, the obvious solution is to... divide that power over more skills.

My remark was intended to remind everyone that one big reason WotC is in this hole is their own fault. Taking away Int's outsized influence over skills is a big reason everybody (not literally everybody) except Wizards dump Int.

If you back to early editions charisma was considered an attribute with generally questionable value (or worse) depending on the edition. Since those editions there has been this endless loop of design looking to correct that by improving charisma

 

[Vaalingrade]

Maybe we just drop INT and CON so we don't have to be upset by how bad they are at being stats.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

If you back to early editions charisma was considered an attribute with generally questionable value (or worse) depending on the edition. Since those editions there has been this endless loop of design looking to correct that by improving charisma

I was explaining to my wife why clerics are so ludicrously overpowered in Baldur's Gate 3 in the same way: "You see, no one ever wanted to play them -- for decades -- so they kept giving improving them, over and over and over ..."

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

The RAW mentions under "Other Charisma Checks" that Charisma is the ability used to "Find the best person to talk to for news, rumors, and gossip." and "Blend into a crowd to get the sense of key topics of conversation."

How important is it that there needs to be a specific skill that lets you add your proficiency bonus that roll? Or is the flat Charisma roll appropriate?

That said, I currently use the official alternate rule where skills are not tied to only one ability. Because of this, I have run "Gather Information" as Charisma (Investigation) checks.

Because I like when skills aren't tied to Abilities, I'm not sure how I feel about the Playtest currently isolating the use of the mental Abilities to their Ability-specific actions:

• The Influence Action is for Charisma checks (Animal Handling, Deception, Intimidation, Persuasion)
• The Search Action is for Wisdom checks (Insight, Medicine, Perception, Survival)
• The Study Action is for Intelligence checks (Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, Religion)

Where would "Gather Information" fit into that paradigm?

• Are you "Influencing" others with a Charisma (Persuasion) check to get truth out of them?
• Are you "Searching" for the truth by using Wisdom (Insight) to talk to people and judging their state of mind and to determine the nature/truth of information provided to you?
• Are you "Studying" the population using Intelligence (Investigation), to deduce the nature of verbal clues provided by locals?

 

[CapnZapp]

If you back to early editions charisma was considered an attribute with generally questionable value (or worse) depending on the edition. Since those editions there has been this endless loop of design looking to correct that by improving charisma

Yes I know.

Now however threads such as this one suggests they might need to backtrack some of these design corrections.

Not saying I believe they will. Saying people don't need to invent things when they could just look at how the game worked before and maybe undoing some of the recent changes.

tl;dr: Fixing the OPness of Charisma is easy if you remember how things used to work before. Same with the supposed OP-ness of Dexterity over Strength. No need to invent evermore convoluted new mechanisms when perhaps it's easier to just walk back one of the many changes added to 5E.

 

[tetrasodium]

Yes I know.

Now however threads such as this one suggests they might need to backtrack some of these design corrections.

Not saying I believe they will. Saying people don't need to invent things when they could just look at how the game worked before and maybe undoing some of the recent changes.

tl;dr: Fixing the OPness of Charisma is easy if you remember how things used to work before. Same with the supposed OP-ness of Dexterity over Strength. No need to invent evermore convoluted new mechanisms when perhaps it's easier to just walk back one of the many changes added to 5E.

You miss the point, deliberately perhaps. No amount of bringing up other attributes or dilution of charisma will change things is charisma keeps accelerating away from the rest with new abilities cloned from other attributes. The existence of a thread about helping to boost charisma further does not in itself show a need

 

[CapnZapp]

The RAW mentions under "Other Charisma Checks" that Charisma is the ability used to "Find the best person to talk to for news, rumors, and gossip." and "Blend into a crowd to get the sense of key topics of conversation."

But which skill, is the question?

The game poorly handles the idea "use any skill with any ability". People pick skills assuming they will be used with certain abilities. No point in picking skills if you have to use poor ability scores.

So it's unreasonable to "suddenly" ask for a skill check that normally is associated with a different ability. Much better to have a new skill that already is associated with Charisma.

The game isn't set up for the idea where you have few big skills that gets used with different abilities in different situations. The intrinsic value of keeping the number of skills very low just isn't there.

For instance, using Investigate (Charisma) for gather information or gossip checks is irritating if you have a low Int. Why take a skill you normally suck at? You're much better off convincing your DM you can use Persuasion instead.

The entire problem is created by WotC going overboard with skill reduction.

Or is the flat Charisma roll appropriate?

Not unless people become much better at assigning lower DCs for flat ability rolls.

Gather Information is not an inherently more difficult task. Flat ability checks are by design more difficult if the DCs remain constant because you don't add your proficiency bonus to the roll, because there's no skill associated which you can be proficient in.