The Warlord, about it's past present and future, pitfalls and solutions. (Please calling all warlord players)

[Bedrockgames]

I can already hear the screams of rage if a Warlord is able to reduce damage inflicted by magic, able to make multiple reactions so that an attack that affects multiple targets can have all the damage mitigated, and work at all ranges or on unwilling targets. Also, once your hit points have been reduced the Warlord is as useful to you as a chocolate teapot.

I dont consider it an issue. Personally not a fan of the warlord, but i also get that they are walking a fine line. If warlords make it into core I will just ignore them but it wont infuriate me. I think enough people feel strongly enough about the warlord either way that having a pro or con warlord discussion prior to play will be pretty typical.

 

[Cybit]

As someone who thinks the "HP can only be healed by magic, screamhealing is breaking my immersion" argument is ridiculous and at best, tunnel vision (there are a great many things in 3E that make, far, FAR less sense); I'd actually want to take away HP healing from warlords just because that way, they don't become flat out scarier than the cleric.

I like the idea of making them enablers / defenders, so where as a cleric might patch you up from that fireball, the warlord tells you to get the hell out of its' way.

I would not judge WotC's plans with healing & warlords with much certainty; they are very much in the "well, we sort of think we have a plan, but we have no idea whether we'll like it or not till we actually play with it."

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

For me to even consider buying D&D Next, the Warlord class would have to be:

1. Extant. It's my favorite class in all of D&D, and its inclusion or exclusion makes a statement about whether my interests are remotely connected to what Next is trying to achieve.
2. Potentially a purely martial character. I don't care if the Warlord has magical options, but it must be possible to play one from level 1 to level (wherever the level cap is) without taking a single magical option.
3. A full cleric replacement. A party with a Cleric and an otherwise identical party with a Warlord must be approximately equally effective at adventuring.

That doesn't have to mean healing, but balancing a non-healing Support role is exceedingly difficult, and the kind of person who objects to Warlord healing will almost certainly object to the huge numbers any healing-equal damage mitigation would have to involve. A 1st level damage mitigation Warlord needs to be handing out around 30 points of temporary hit points to equal a Cleric (and even then he can't function in panic mode), and that scales, hard.

Of course, explicit or implicit acknowledgement in the rules that hit points = physical damage is, itself, an instant no-sell for me. I can't contextualize a world in which that's the case, and it violates what HP have been declared to be since OD&D. If that's in the game then the game is not one I'll purchase.

EDIT: I take it back, the earliest case where I know HP are defined is in AD&D:

It is quite unreasonable to assume that as a character gains levels of ability in his or her class that a corresponding gain in actual ability to sustain physical damage takes place. It is preposterous to state such an assumption, for if we are to assume that a man is killed by a sword thrust which does 4 hit points of damage, we must similarly assume that a hero could, on the average, withstand five such thrusts before being slain! Why then the increase in hit points? Because these reflect both the actual physical ability of the character to withstand damage - as indicated by constitution bonuses- and a commensurate increase in such areas as skill in combat and similar life-or-death situations, the "sixth sense" which warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck, and the fantastic provisions of magical protections and/or divine protection. Therefore, constitution affects both actual ability to withstand physical punishment hit points (physique) and the immeasurable areas which involve the sixth sense and luck (fitness).

 

[Garthanos]

For me to even consider buying D&D Next, the Warlord class would have to be:

1. Extant. It's my favorite class in all of D&D, and its inclusion or exclusion makes a statement about whether my interests are remotely connected to what Next is trying to achieve.
2. Potentially a purely martial character. I don't care if the Warlord has magical options, but it must be possible to play one from level 1 to level (wherever the level cap is) without taking a single magical option.
3. A full cleric replacement. A party with a Cleric and an otherwise identical party with a Warlord must be approximately equally effective at adventuring.

That doesn't have to mean healing, but balancing a non-healing Support role is exceedingly difficult, and the kind of person who objects to Warlord healing will almost certainly object to the huge numbers any healing-equal damage mitigation would have to involve. A 1st level damage mitigation Warlord needs to be handing out around 30 points of temporary hit points to equal a Cleric (and even then he can't function in panic mode), and that scales, hard.

Of course, explicit or implicit acknowledgement in the rules that hit points = physical damage is, itself, an instant no-sell for me. I can't contextualize a world in which that's the case, and it violates what HP have been declared to be since OD&D. If that's in the game then the game is not one I'll purchase.

EDIT: I take it back, the earliest case where I know HP are defined is in AD&D:

I remember making similar computations about thp... I dont recall my exact numbers but it was spooky enough to start my head shaking... similarly when I figured out the number and nature of battlefield mobility improvements required to get even close to what a basic flight spell provided.

 

[Libramarian]

Why then the increase in hit points? Because these reflect both the actual physical ability of the character to withstand damage - as indicated by constitution bonuses- and a commensurate increase in such areas as skill in combat and similar life-or-death situations, the "sixth sense" which warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck, and the fantastic provisions of magical protections and/or divine protection.

Where does the Warlord's healing fit into this? The sixth sense part? HP as morale is not part of this definition.

 

[Ratskinner]

That doesn't have to mean healing, but balancing a non-healing Support role is exceedingly difficult, and the kind of person who objects to Warlord healing will almost certainly object to the huge numbers any healing-equal damage mitigation would have to involve. A 1st level damage mitigation Warlord needs to be handing out around 30 points of temporary hit points to equal a Cleric (and even then he can't function in panic mode), and that scales, hard.

Given the other thread....I'm thinking healing in D&D needs to be changed and drastically reduced.

Of course, explicit or implicit acknowledgement in the rules that hit points = physical damage is, itself, an instant no-sell for me.

I've felt similarly for a long time. The HP system only works as an abstraction...abstractly. It seems to generate lots of problems down the line (problems which are usually blamed on the other rules HP is interacting with, rather that HP themselves.)

 

[Obryn]

Where does the Warlord's healing fit into this? The sixth sense part? HP as morale is not part of this definition.

Do you think that list was intended to be exhaustive? Never mind the silliness inherent in Gygaxian DMG Fundamentalism, it's saying "such as." As in, there's other stuff, too.

-O

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Where does the Warlord's healing fit into this? The sixth sense part? HP as morale is not part of this definition.

I would generally fit it under "skill in combat and similar life and death situations," but that reflects my preferring Int-based to Cha-based Warlords. Morale was a separate set of rules in AD&D.

The important thing is that HP do not equal physical resilience.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I've felt similarly for a long time. The HP system only works as an abstraction...abstractly. It seems to generate lots of problems down the line (problems which are usually blamed on the other rules HP is interacting with, rather that HP themselves.)

See, I don't agree with this at all. What's wrong with HP as Gygax described them in the 1e DMG? They represent a grab bag of things that set PCs apart, they represent the toughness of huge beasts, they represent the supernatural vitality and sheer presence of powerful demons - it's the fact that they don't mean any one thing that makes them so great!

 

[Ratskinner]

See, I don't agree with this at all. What's wrong with HP as Gygax described them in the 1e DMG?

Seriously? I'm so stunned.... I mean, are you trolling me?

Schrodinger's Wounds.
Tougher people (in most incarnations) take longer to heal.
Non-combat injuries. (The barbarian dropped from orbit.)
Save or Die effects get higher-value.
Traditional healing spells make no narrative sense.
I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. OMG! I'm dying! Help! Help!

... and I'm sure there's more that I'm missing in my currently shocked state.

I mean, a cursory search will reveal the multitude of HPs problems (and related arguments) stretching back to the game's beginning. And no, "You're all doing it wrong, they're abstract." doesn't make it any better, because many of the narrative problems are because you can't tell what any given "hit" did. They are (along with alignment) among the worst mistakes in the original game, period. For crying out loud, they're descended from rules for ironclad ships! Maybe I'm being too harsh. Y'know, for a very gamist game, where your character is just your pawn as you try to make it through an FFV dungeon, the "energy bar" of HP above everyone's heads makes some sense. However, the game evolved (for most of us, most of the time, I would say) beyond that even before I started playing 30 some years ago.

All that said, I'm not an advocate for adding a zillion fiddly bits to combat and injury. I don't need a stack of charts to determine hit-location, etc. I'm perfectly happy with a system where HP represent the quasi-mystical ability to not take a significant wound in combat, a combination of endurance, will, and skill. Then trigger an injury mechanic when you lose your last one (with death as a possibility). Then we can say "You have a <light/serious/critical/mortal> wound, and <take a penalty\limits of some kind> until it is healed." Assassinations and non-combat injuries, can bypass your hitpoints and just go straight to the injury mechanics. Medusae, and many other SoD effects could simply deal damage and carry override exceptions to the injury table (which makes getting a sneak attack from her even worse). The warlord isn't shouting wounds closed, he's just boosting up your Will=HP. You can't confuse his abilities with that, because healing magic would actually remove i.e. heal the wounds, not just replenish your energy bar.

Okay, must stop ranting....