D&D (2024) The new warlock (Packet 7)

[mellored]

That's not how TM does his math that I can see. It looks like he does 60% hit + 5% crit (aka 65% hit overall)

Backwarding...

73.5 damage
-7 greatsword crit
-27 smite
-27 smite crit
-3.5 lifedrinker crit
-9 spirit shroud crit
= 0

So 60% chance to hit, total.

 

[mellored]

If he did I take it back with my apologies. However [citation needed]

Timestamp: 33:13

He uses 2nd level smites as average.

 

[mellored]

Stop this. The whole point of this miserable playtest experience has been to make sure this new Players Handbook works with the last 10 years of D&D material, including spells released in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything (where the bulk of the new additions to the PHB are coming from.) Until we see an updated version of Spirit Shroud in a playtest, we have to assume it's 100% viable for builds and playtesting.

I've watched too many good ideas flushed down the crapper in the name of backwards compatibility to not have it matter now.

Pretty sure it's a bit overpowered even with just Hex.
Or possibly with darkness + devils sight.

Though the real answer would probably be to summon a Barlgura.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Last week on the "magical cunning" thread I noted it seemed like the devs had decided to move away from "spellcasting nova warlocks" and lean all the way into warlock being a gish but the caster-focused folks didn't really want to get into it.

I am not sure I agree with estimate on total output simply because so much of it depends on the volumes of encounters/day & short rests/day, which have been the bugbear of the warlock class since day1.

I do think this will go a long way to countering that as warlocks can easily fall back into a multipurpose skirmisher when spell slots are thin without being just eldritch blast cannons. (Which, to be fair, they still are. But they are not just eldritch blast cannons)

Assuming there is some last balance tweaks so the warlock is not the uber-melee, the question now is how the gishlock will be received. Will the caster types reject it? Will fighter types decide its too weird to play?

 

[Stalker0]

Backwarding...

73.5 damage
-7 greatsword crit
-27 smite
-27 smite crit
-3.5 lifedrinker crit
-9 spirit shroud crit
= 0

So 60% chance to hit, total.

ok 55% hit, 5% crit then? I can update my math if that's the case

 

[Mistwell]

[Citation needed]

How do you normally work out DPR with limited resources? Smite affects burst damage. Not DPR.

Smite impacts DPR. You do it...the way Treantmonk did it. If your limited resources would be required for more times than available than you divide it by the number available.

Why wouldn't you include limited resources? Heck some classes are primarily limited resources! You account for them the best you can, like everything else.

As for citation, I'd be curious to see any optimization person out there who doesn't do that?

 

[Clint_L]

Yes - but he's also implying that it's the warlock that's broken when the real problem is that Spirit Shroud is providing 17.55 DPR. (And his unorthodox use of a limited use ability in Smite in sustained DPR calculations adds more extra damage than Hex would).

Take 17.55 damage out from Spirit Shroud and leveling the playing field by not including limited use abilities and no it doesn't. It's good but not top. Spirit Shroud is the part of this build that is outright broken.

And then there's the fact that I don't think Pact of the Blade qualifies for Great Weapon Master (Prerequisite: Proficiency with Any Martial Weapon) but that's a question that takes rules clarification. And taking that away takes away a further almost 5DPR.

When we remove over 20 DPR off a build because it shouldn't be there that's a lot. Low 40s DPR is fine.

(And before someone suggests Shadow of Moil is a better buff than Spirit Shroud Shadow takes an entire action to cast so can only be used for pre-buffing in ambush or challenge situations).

That's not real math - you're just throwing about a bunch of assumptions. Show your math if you want to convince me. I break down DPR numbers all the time. I will quibble with a few of TM's assumptions, as noted, but his overall conclusion is pretty accurate. Bladelock is way overtuned.

 

[Neonchameleon]

That's not real math - you're just throwing about a bunch of assumptions. Show your math if you want to convince me. I break down DPR numbers all the time. I will quibble with a few of TM's assumptions, as noted, but his overall conclusion is pretty accurate. Bladelock is way overtuned.

I think I've already done this on this thread. But yes it is "real math" - and what you actually want is me to show my workings.

• Spirit Shroud does 2d8 = 9 average damage per attack.
• 9 * 60% (Hit) = 5.4 + 9 * 0.05 (crit) = .45. Spirit Shroud therefore does 5.85 damage per attack.
• At three attacks per round 5.85*3 = 17.55

Spirit Shroud therefore does 17.55 damage per round by Treantmonk's math. Calling that "Not real math" simply because I haven't shown every single step of my workings is nonsense.

Great Weapon Master does

• 5 damage per hit
• Your chance of missing with all three attacks so not triggering this damage is 40% * 40% * 40% = 6.4%
• Great Weapon Master therefore does an average of 5 * 100% - 5 * 6.4% = (500 - 32)/100 = 4.68 dpr.

And to sum it up as you apparently need your hand holding every step of the way

• 17.55 + 4.68 = 22.23
• 22.23 is of course greater than 20.

Take 22.23 damage per round away from the Bladelock and it indeed loses a lot of damage.

You can even add back the damage that Hex would do (3.5 * 60% + 3.5 *5% = 2.275 damage per attack = 6.825 DPR) and you're still at 15.405 damage less than Treantmonk's example.

When Spirit Shroud does more than 2.5 times as much damage as Hex when both are upcast to the same level either it's way overtuned or Hex is seriously undertuned. When one of them does 10 DPR more than the other this has a serious impact on your DPR calculations.

 

[Baumi]

I actually think that he should do more damage than a barbarian if he spends all his spells and feats on damage Buffing. After all he is much more vulnerable (Resistance, d12 Hit Dice and other survival features of the (sub-)class of the barbarian) and is missing all the other tricks that the martials have.

Also if he has to start a fight without spell slots he is fracked

 

[mellored]

ok 55% hit, 5% crit then? I can update my math if that's the case

Crit is also a hit.

So he does 60% time damage.
+ 5% times bonus damage.

But what every way you want to math it out.